Paul Bernardo Police Interrogation Transcript

Paul Bernardo is a serial killer and serial rapist (the Scarborough Rapist) in Canada, active between 1987 and 1992. Prior to marrying is ex-wife, he had only committed rapes. His wife, Karla Homolka, participated in the murders and helped obtain the girls that would be killed. In the case of Elizabeth Bain’s murder, the defendant, Robert Baltovich’s attorney contended that Bernardo was the actual perpetrator. The following is the police interview about this.

Paul Bernardo Police Interview Transcript

Detective Brad Hoover: My name is, uh, Detective Brad Hoover. Uh, My patch number 6188. I’m with the Toronto Police Sex Crime Unit. Uh, the time now is 2:05 p.m. and we’re presently at the Kingston Penitentiary in Kingston Ontario, uh, in a board room as thick as the main building, you would call it. Um, present in the room here, if I could just have the two of you identify yourself for the purposes of the video tape that’s being made. Seated to my left, off camera, um, now sitting at the table is your counsel? Just, could you please identify yourself?

Counsel Anthony Bryant: Yes, sir. It’s Anthony Bryant.

Detective Brad Hoover: And, uh, straight across the table from me, if you could identify yourself please?

Detective Coulis: [inaudible] Coulis C-O-U-L-I-S Badge number 64834 police service.

Detective Brad Hoover: And seated to my right, if you could just identify yourself please?

Paul Bernardo: Paul Jason Teale AKA Paul Bernardo.

Detective Brad Hoover: And again, my name is Brad Hoover and today is June the 7th of 2007. Mr. Teale, the reason we’re here today is, uh, to speak to you in regards to a couple of incid… a couple of matters. First of all, before we start, I just want you to, um, make sure you are aware that what we say is being videotaped here.

Paul Bernardo: Yeah, I’m aware.

Detective Brad Hoover: I’m just going to start this audio tape. I forgot to do that before. [bang and beep] Uh, just started this audio tape here. We started the interview at 2:05 p.m. My name is, uh, Detective Brad Hoover. Paul, um, you’re not, presently being given a cation or anything. I want you to understand that what you’re saying to us today is voluntary. That means that if you don’t want to talk to us, you don’t have to. Uh, your counsel is present and uh, if you need to speak to him you certainly can but I just want to make sure that you understand that what you say here is voluntary and uh, that we’re interviewing you as a potential witness. Do you understand that?

Paul Bernardo:  Yeah.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay. Uh, just a little bit of background about the first time we met back last year in April 2006. Um, that was in regards to a letter that you had sent to general attorney’s office that filtered down to my office in regards to some admissions you had made about some sexual assaults you had committed. I am here to tell you that I have concluded that investigation and that um, there have been two offences that I have been able to identify and uh, with the information that you provided to me at that time was able to conclude those matters as having been committed by yourself. So, for that I thank you for that information, and…

Paul Bernardo: Um, sorry. You’ve identified [cross talk]

Detective Brad Hoover: Identified the offence. No, no, no, I identified the office you were talking about and uh, based on that information I was able to conclude those cases that, that actually provided enough information that I was satisfied that you were the person the committed those offenses.

Paul Bernardo: Okay. Now what about….

Detective Brad Hoover: That make sense?

Paul Bernardo: And that makes sense. What about ones that you thought that I came forward with and you thought I didn’t do? Was it any of those?

Detective Brad Hoover: There was none that I thought that you didn’t do. There was some that I didn’t have enough information to either identify the offence because, um, you were unable to provide enough details at that time or they may not have ever been reported to the police. Cause you said, when we spoke, some of them were, uh, wouldn’t call them minor offence but, uh…

Paul Bernardo: No, I understand.

Detective Brad Hoover: …offences that may not have been reported the police.

Paul Bernardo: Okay um, problem. Uh, I turned on the TV, waited for Peer Regional to come by. September rolls around, they say, make a public announcement, it’s written on my filed here that uh, that I lied to police and I did not commit the crimes that I said I committed and [inaudible] on Peel Regional. Big problem.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay. I’ve spoken to Peel Region…

Paul Bernardo: Yeah.

Detective Brad Hoover: …and they have told me that, uh, they don’t have enough information at this point to identify anything that you’ve, um, the letter that was sent to the police, to through the police, wasn’t specific enough to identify any offences. Now, that’s something we can talk about sort of following this interview. And if you want to get into that, we can talk about that.

Paul Bernardo:  Well, I’ve been sitting on this for years [inaudible]. It’s written in my file and it makes me seem like a loony. Just this crazy, you guys love doing that, I’m just this crazy psychopathic liar. Why was that statement an issue? Why didn’t they come in and talk to me if they didn’t have enough information? We were waiting…On that tape, you can play that tape back when I asked you guys if Peel Regional was going to come in. I sat there month after month after month, no one came. I turned on the TV in September, Peel Regional declared Paul Bernardo was, you know, this crazy liar to police. What, what, what’s is the fundamental problem here?

Detective Brad Hover: Well…

Paul Bernardo:  No, I mean, I guess that’s just the Canadian way and uh, and, and no one comes in and now you guys are saying you did not have enough information.

Detective Brad Hover: Well, I can’t answer for them specifically as to what they did or didn’t do. Um, I can tell you that, because they are a separate police department I don’t have control over what investigation that they did do. I can tell you I have spoken with the investigator in Peel Region and they have told me that at this point they do not have enough information to move forward. They haven’t been able to identify any offence that we specifically talked about.

Paul Bernardo:  That statement you’re giving to me is much different than the public statement that they said which is I’m a liar.

Detective Brad Hover: Okay. Well, I don’t, I don’t…

Paul Bernardo:  It’s night and day and they didn’t come in. If they didn’t have enough information, why don’t you come in and get the information? I mean, either I’m lying or I’m not lying, and this goes to the [inaudible] of this argument. Either I’m a liar to you and I’m going to lie to you about everything like I did to Peel Regional according to their story or I’m not. You know, I, I, I just, I just, I’m not going to sit here and come voluntarily, and people come, and you guys ban me from the press. You roll your stories over and you constantly say I’m a liar, I’m a liar. I made mistakes 17 years ago. 17, okay, fine, I did but, but now we’re talking about today and you’re not going to roll forward that I’m some psychopathic liar sitting in jail claiming other people’s responsibilities for other crimes. This is a total cross examination point. You want to start this thing? [inaudible] grab ahold of it. Say “well, you lied about other crimes, you know, he’s a crazy liar.” Why didn’t you guys resolve this?

Detective Brad Hover: And again, I can not answer for what Peel Region did or didn’t do. Um…

Detective Coulis: Jurisdictionally we are kind of bound as to what takes place [crosstalk]

Paul Bernardo:  Well, but still, the good guys and the bad guys. You know what I mean? You’re on the same team.

Detective Coulis: Yes, we are but as far as us inv, investigating matters outside of the actual Toronto Proper, um, that’s why Peel Regional has their police service and like Detective Hoover said, we can’t answer as to what they did with their investigations or the issues they were looking at or transpired out in their area and we really can’t speak to that. Now, whether that’s something you wish to have your counsel down the line then that’s sometime else…

Paul Bernardo: Yeah, that’s true.

Detective Coulis: But unfortunately, there’s, we, there wasn’t a lot Detective Hoover and I could do in regards to those things.

Paul Bernardo: Well, [inaudible] they should subpoena the guys from Peel Regional. They could bring in all the facts of where I lied, then, if I’m a liar. That’s what I say to do because either I’m a liar or I’m not a liar and I’m not a liar. But you guys are trying to paint me as one. The public, they, they turn on the TV in September of last year and I’m this crazy liar. Uh, that’s what the TV reported. Not only did they report it there, they wrote it on my file. I’ve got it [inaudible] myself. Paul Bernardo uh, Peel Regional says that Paul Bernardo lied about crimes he didn’t commit, said he did.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay, um…

Paul Bernardo:  I mean, this, this, that’s just awful. I mean, come on.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay.

Paul Bernardo:  Enough manipulation. You know what I mean? Either I told the truth or otherwise the whole purpose of the interview is stupid because if I’m this crazy liar I would just be sitting here lying to you about everything, right? Right? I mean, why wouldn’t I? I’m just this crazy liar.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay. And again, I don’t, I don’t know exactly what was said by Peel Regional and I’m not here to answer to what they said. Either [crosstalk]

Paul Bernardo:  You know, it’s, it’s one thing, you know, I’m a human being and, and to say that I’m a dangerous offender, raping and killing and all this stuff, it’s fine. I mean, free publicity deal, get that, tough on crime, get that bad guy. But when it gets to a certain point [inaudible] it just, it affects me totally. You know what I mean? I made mistakes. I made mistakes a long time ago. But don’t say that today about me because then we’re lying, and we have a big problem here because I’m looking at you and you’re the bad guys because I’m not doing anything wrong. I’m telling the truth and you guys are walking around issuing statements that I lied here, I lied there. No?

Detective Coulis: Well, those weren’t statements issued by Detective Hoover and myself or [crosstalk]

Paul Bernardo:  Yeah, I know but it’s the attorney general that sent you guys down here. He’s fighting this case. He’s taking this [inaudible] back, right? So, it’s, it’s, really all the, the same organization isn’t it? Attorney general I saw on TV talking about it.

Detective Coulis: But, but this is a separate matter from what those issues…

Paul Bernardo: But it’s still the General Attorney’s office. [laughs]

Detective Coulis: Yeah, it, it, may very well be but um, like I said I can’t speak to anything that Peel Regional does. Say for instance they release to the media because they have….

Paul Bernardo:  You know, it’s the same thing. If I’m a liar, take the facts that they have, they come down, they talk to me, any cross examine, any defense lawyer, call them up and show me where I’m lying because you’re not going to find it. Maybe there’s a minor mistake here or there because I think there’s one thing about some, tree, driveway, where the trees were, you know your memory gets a little fuzzy over time but to say that is just ridiculous. Its like you guys didn’t go, uh, you guys polygraph Karla yet? Ask her about it? Nobody from the General Attorney’s office go down there? Nobody cared? Again, it’s the same, I know, but it’s the same problem because you guys are making me out to be a huge liar and, and this is a huge liar and, and…

Detective Brad Hoover: Well, I don’t, I don’t have any doubt as to what you told us before. Ah, the facts that I can verify I believe were true and from what you’ve told me and you haven’t told me any lies yet so I don’t have any personal reason to believe you’re lying to me.

Paul Bernardo:  Exactly.

Detective Brad Hoover: So, again…

Paul Bernardo:  Exactly but this is a different story than what I have on my file and….

Detective Brad Hoover: And I don’t know what is in your file because I’m not privy to that information or what’s there or what’s not there. I’m just telling you from my perspective and from an investigator perspective, and to what I’ve looked into and to what admissions you made in April last year, to me, you know, I’m satisfied. I’ve done what I can do as far as the investigation. If Peel, if you would like to provide me with more information about the specific occurrences that occurred in Peel Region, then we can talk about that after the, uh, focus of what we are here for today.

Paul Bernardo:  But it is, it is part of the focus.

Detective Brad Hoover: It is and it isn’t. I mean, obviously directly we are here today to deal with the Baltovich matter that you’re aware of.

Paul Bernardo:  But dealing with me comes down to credibility.

Detective Brad Hoover: Comes down to credibility and absolutely it does and that’s, um, that’s what we’re here to talk about today. So, let’s, let’s deal with that and then we will deal with the other stuff afterwards. Is that okay?

Paul Bernardo:  Well, yeah. I was just making my point on it because it’s got to be addressed sometime.

Detective Brad Hoover: Absolutely. It will be.

Paul Bernardo:  Well, it should have been dealt with a year and a bit ago. So.

Detective Brad Hoover: Yeah.

Paul Bernardo:  Well, not quite a year, actually.

Detective Brad Hoover: A little over a year ago. Um, I have a few, some questions that were, um, that were given to me to ask you in relation to the, um, Baltovich matter, Robert Baltovich matter. Um, before we do that, I just want to say you obviously understand the importance of telling the truth and, and, um, the potential consequences of someone who lies to the police, um, and not telling the truth?

Paul Bernardo:  I think we’ve discovered that. Actually, I was referring you guys tell the truth.

Detective Brad Hoover: Right.

Paul Bernardo: [laughs]

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay, so we’re aware of that.  And, um, in this matter I believe we’ve had some conversations with your counsel and, in regards to it and um, there has been some discussion about polygraph testing in this matter. Is that true or not true or do you recall that?

Paul Bernardo:  Wha… [laughs] you’re opening up cans of worms everywhere.

Detective Brad Hoover: No, I’m just asking you a specific question.

Paul Bernardo:  You know that goes back to you guys polygraph [inaudible]. You guys didn’t polygraph Karla and haven’t in the two years since. Have you guys gone down there and asked her? Have you settled that matter with it? Because you can say that I lied or whatever about a polygraph, but have you asked her? Because if, it comes down to a lot of that issue. I mean, have you asked her? General attorney [cross talk]

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay, let me tell you a little bit. My involvement with this overall investigation of the Baltovich is very limited. Uh, the only knowledge that I have, as to what investigation has been done or hasn’t been done is related to the conversations I’ve had with this interview here today.

Paul Bernardo:  Okay.

Detective Brad Hoover: Um, who or what other witnesses there are I don’t know.

Paul Bernardo:  An answer your question, an answer your question, I don’t want to go off on tangents, but all these issues are relevant. I know you don’t think they are, but they are. An answer to your question is we had some discussion on it but when [inaudible] and Peel PD came down before Karla was released I told them I would be willing to take a polygraph on anything and everything, would you in turn, are you going to go down before you release Karla, just to ask her. She’s not going to take it she’s going to fail on all these issues. [inaudible] blah blah blah.

Detective Brad Hoover: Right.

Paul Bernardo:  Did [inaudible] happen in July? Was the girl in January actually to kidnapped [inaudible]. Picked up somebody in the bar that she tried to [inaudible] roll over and all, all these other issues, all relevant. All relevant and, and, so then I addressed it to you guys when you came back again, uh, last year. I said “yeah, I’ll take a polygraph on anything because I’m not telling a lie on a thing”. Are you, have you, again I ask the question, have you guys gone down there? I mean, I know Karla’s free now. I’m not in the business of disciplinary [inaudible] it’s not my thing but my point was did you ask her the question just so we get the story straight. I mean, if she refuses, well, there’s, there’s a reason why she’s refusing. And again, you guys couldn’t provide an answer. And now almost a year later, and again you don’t provide an answer. So, I mean, you know, I don’t know what you’re asking me. You asking me to take a polygraph when you’re not willing to ask her?

Detective Brad Hoover: Well, again this, this, my part in this investigation is, is limited to what we’re seeing here today so, so the details of all of what other witnesses may or may not have been [inaudible] or done, I don’t know. And as a potential witness I’m not allowed to tell you what I’ve…

Paul Bernardo:  Well, yeah.

Detective Brad Hoover: …done. So, that, I have to sort of be careful about the way that’s answered or even what you think my answer might be.

Paul Bernardo:  Yeah, no, I just, just wanted for the record that I gave you good information in which you guys could’ve, independent of me, could have verified my story or not.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay.

Paul Bernardo: And whether you guys do or do not is not my business. Like I said I’m not a prosecutor.

Detective Brad Hoover: Right.

Paul Bernardo: I’m not here to point my finger at anyone but I showed you guys where to go so if you guys don’t do that it’s your business. But, you know, to me, it’s like, if you didn’t, why didn’t you if you guys want the truth about things?

Detective Brad Hoover: Right, so, I understand that. And I understand what you’re saying so, um, what we’re here to talk about today, uh, obviously you know that this statement uh, may be used in court or may be [inaudible] to court as a voluntary statement.

Paul Bernardo: Yeah.

Detective Brad Hoover: A polygraph obviously is not uh, something that is court admissible. I’m not sure if you’re aware of that or not.

Paul Bernardo:  Yeah, I am.

Detective Brad Hoover: It’s not used in court. Okay, um, so the crux of what we’re here to talk about is it’s been suggested that, um, in the continuing investigation of Elizabeth Bain, and the charge of murder against Robert Baltovich, that you are the alternative suspect or an alternative suspect. Are you aware of that?

Paul Bernardo:  Yeah, yeah.

Detective Brad Hoover: Um, did you kill Elizabeth Bain on June 19 of 1990?

Paul Bernardo:  Well, that’s a loaded question. I mean, are we going to go back and, and, and go through the time sequence of what happened in my life? I mean, I could just give a yes or no answer, but you know, there’s a lot of issues about that.

Detective Brad Hover: Right.

Paul Bernardo:  You know Karla my [inaudible] who did what, where, when. This is why I said did you guys go down there to get a polygraph to see if she’s telling the truth about it. Why didn’t they do it in the first place? I mean, polygraphed everyone in the Camaro, why not make a deal with someone and not give them a polygraph. It’s incomprehensible to me. Now I’m sitting, my file says her version and it’s a lie. You know? You know what I mean?

Detective Brad Hoover: Yeah.

Paul Bernardo:  I, I, you know, I’m not making frivolous points. I mean, now you’re asking me, after you said, Peel Regional said I’m lying about this and then you’re saying I’m lying about my profile, you’re saying I’m lying about if I’m better or not. Now you’re saying, “hey did you kill this person?” Well you’re saying I’m lying here, here, here. I could say “no I didn’t” but I mean, you already said I lied here with Peel, you’re saying…

Detective Brad Hoover: No, I’m not saying, I’m not saying anything about who’s lying. I’m simply…

Paul Bernardo:  And I’ve given you directions to go find the truth. I’ve always done that.

Detective Brad Hoover: Right and I’ve, I’ve asked, again I’ve told you that I’ve done investigations on information that you’ve told me, and as a result of that information I’ve been able to verify. In my mind you’ve told me the truth. So, if Peel Regional is lying about you or someone else is lying about you, I have no control over that or know…

Paul Bernardo:  That goes right back to credibility.

Detective Brad Hoover: Well, absolutely it does and that’s, I guess, the, the easy way [inaudible] if we can go through, we answer the questions and yes, I hope to be able to go through some time line to identify where you were, what you were doing specifically in relation to this case.

Paul Bernardo:  Anyways, I know I’m giving you guys a hard time about some things, but I mean, really, I’m a human being and when you guys do all these things, I got to…anyways, I’ll try to [inaudible]. Anyways the answer to that is no but, the 800lb gorilla in the room, that’s a 25 to life sentence. You know? It really comes down to credibility.

Detective Brad Hoover: Right.

Paul Bernardo:  And not only credibility, timeline and between what Karla and my rules were respectively. The answer to that is no.

Detective Brad Hoover: Um, did you have anything to do with her disappearance?

Paul Bernardo:  No.

Detective Brad Hoover: Did you know Elizabeth Bain?

Paul Bernardo:  Not that I know of.

Detective Brad Hoover: Had you ever met her?

Paul Bernardo:  I could answer that with a “I don’t remember” because if I did or if I didn’t, I don’t remember. I know an ex-girlfriend tried to say but like I said, I don’t remember.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay. Um, you are obviously aware of her disappearance…

Paul Bernardo:  Yeah, sort of.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay, do you recall when you became aware of this?

Paul Bernardo: [sighs] Best that I can best recollect is after September. Didn’t follow the news much.

Detective Brad Hoover: Um, the date, obviously, June the 19th , 1990 was [crosstalk]

Paul Bernardo:  But, but, but you know, other, other than that, I don’t remember. You know what I mean? I heard about it before, but I can’t recall…

Detective Brad Hoover: You can’t recall…

Paul Bernardo:  …if I did or not, but I remember in jail I had news papers after that fact. I saw something on that sort.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay, um, we’ll, we’ll sort of get into that in a little bit when we, uh, hope to go through a bit of a timeline with you as to some things that may jog your memory as to…

Paul Bernardo:  Now we’re talking.

Detective Brad Hoover: …um, back in that time. I mean, if you asked me what I was doing three weeks ago on Tuesday I probably couldn’t tell you unless you put some reference to it. So, we’ll hopefully be able to do that. Um, and again, obviously June the 19th, 1990, do you know what you were doing that day?

Paul Bernardo: [laughs] No, I have no idea.

Detective Brad Hoover: Um, I, I have a document here in front of me that uh, references some points in time around this June of 1990 from police investigation. This is what um, indicates you may have been involved with or may have, certain things you may have done that… I’d like to go over a couple of them that um, sort of made, sort of assist you in remembering what you were doing back in 1990. Um, the first part of June, 1990, actually June the 1st, Karla had uh doctors appointment um, where she was complaining of pains in her right side. Um, perhaps she had something to do with a rabies shot. Does that ring any bells?

Paul Bernardo: Not at all.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay. Um. In the first part of June you had a Nissan 40SX. Is that correct?

Paul Bernardo:  Yeah.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay. You were making several trips into the United States. Uh, June 2nd, June 3rd, June 10th, June 16th . I think at that point you were involved with cigarette smuggling and things like that. From what I recall, someone said no.

Paul Bernardo:  That would be no. That wasn’t until after we moved out so.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay. Um, making a couple of trips to the States within a couple days, that, that’s something [crosstalk]

Paul Bernardo:  When we started the relationship, we were going over all the time so. Just for personal reasons though.

Detective Brad Hoover: Um, on June the 16th you shopped at Ruff Hewn, is that, in the Niagara Falls United States, is, that store sound familiar to you?

Paul Bernardo:  Yes, it sounds familiar. I have no idea about those are the dates but…

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay.

Paul Bernardo: If you got a receipt for it…

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay, I think there must be a receipt there. And again, I don’t have all of the details. I’m just doing by what’s on this sheet of paper. Um, a black expandable binder, is that…

Paul Bernardo:  I think. I can’t recall one hundred percent but…

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay. That would have been around the same time. That was about a week prior to, if you purchased one of those, um, Elizabeth Bain going missing.

Paul Bernardo:  I have no idea when I purchased it. I just…

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay.

Paul Bernardo:  …recall I had something like that. Like an according binder type thing.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay, um, June, June the 16th, again that would be the same day, the same [inaudible] you attended a movie, um, Back to the Future 3. Do you recall when that movie came out?

Paul Bernardo: [laugh] No.

Detective Brad Hoover: Um, there’s a receipt for a cell phone purchased at Radio Shack at the Town and Country Mall at 6366 Young Street. Remember buying a cellphone?

Paul Bernardo: Oh, you know, I bought a cellphone around that time because when I declared bankruptcy [inaudible], I bought the, the, Radio Shack one. I don’t know the dates…

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay, that would have been the day after Elizabeth Bain went missing. Uh, do you remember anything you were involved with around that time? You said you were going bankrupt so what type of activity were you involved in on a day to day basis?

Paul Bernardo: The only reason I remember bankruptcy is that happened uh, uh, around, a couple days before the, the, sexual assault type thing [inaudible]. If I recollect collectly, correctly, it was two days before I, I, filed for that. But I couldn’t even tell you that date, I just know it was sometime in… What, what date did you say that was? June the…

Detective Brad Hoover: June the, uh, 16th of 1990.

Paul Bernardo:  When was that sexual assault, uh the one with the [inaudible]. Was it 24th? 24th? What date do you guys have for that?

Detective Brad Hover: Um, there was one, there was a sexual assault in May of 1990.

Paul Bernardo:  Is that the [inaudible] one in [inaudible]?

Detective Brad Hoover: I think that it is but it doesn’t say that specifically here but shortly after that, um…

Paul Bernardo:  My timeline’s off.

Detective Brad Hoover: Um, the end of June of 1990 that was the original, when someone identified you actually as the Scarborough rapist.

Paul Bernardo:  What? The end of…?

Detective Brad Hoover: That was the end of June 1990. Um, Laurie Homolka’s 19th birthday was June the 22nd of 1990. Do you recall her going to her birthday?

Paul Bernardo:  No, I know, I know it was around that time, but I don’t specifically recall that.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay. The only reason [inaudible] people drinking [inaudible] perhaps. [inaudible]

Paul Bernardo: [shakes head “no”]

Detective Brad Hover: [inaudible]

Paul Bernardo: [inaudible] so.

Detective Brad Hoover: Um. June the 21st, so just, just a day after you bought the cell phone, um, you may have purchased…

Paul Bernardo: I’m sorry, you saying June 19th was this girl’s…

Detective Brad Hoover: June 19th was the day she went missing.

Paul Bernardo: What day did I buy that…

Detective Brad Hoover: June 20th was the day you bought the cell phone. Uh, June 24th

Paul Bernardo: See, I must, I must have filed bankruptcy around then because I got that cellphone [inaudible]. I had to hand my, all my, uh, items in, uh, to the trustee and I had a cell phone, so I went in and got a Radio Shack one. So, it would have been right around the same time. I don’t think I went a month without it. I don’t think so. I might have but I, but anyways, I don’t know. It was a while ago, so memories are fuzzy.

Detective Brad Hoover: Yeah. May the 29th, so that was just before that, or about a month before that, that was the day police released the commons.

Paul Bernardo: Oh, so it was May. [inaudible]

Detective Brad Hoover: Yeah, so that was, uh…

Paul Bernardo: See what happens when you lock a guy up for 15 years then bring this all up? [laughs] Memory gets fuzzy. So, I guess I waited a month to get the cellphone.

Detective Brad Hoover: About a month to get the cellphone. Do you recall anything, what you were, what you were doing during that month? Anything….

Paul Bernardo: Probably the same thing it says there. Going across the border, back and forth, recreational stuff. I know Tammy happened in July. Um, that was [inaudible] in July for the first time. But this was back a few months.

Detective Brad Hoover:  Okay, um…

Paul Bernardo: Maybe [inaudible]

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay. So just prior to Tammy’s birthday there was some shopping at a Canadian tire store.

Paul Bernardo: Laurie’s birthday.

Detective Brad Hoover: Sorry, Laurie’s, uh, birthday. Um, two times in one day you went to a tire store on Sheppard avenue. 1019 Sheppard Avenue. [Bernardo shrugs signifying “I don’t know”] Do you normally shop at Canadian tire stores?

Paul Bernardo: Back then [inaudible]. That’s before all of these super centers and Wal-Marts and stuff [inaudible] so…

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay, um, do you ever recall having any conversations um, about the disappearance of Elizabeth Bain?

Paul Bernardo: No.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay. If I, if I played you, um, a short audio clip, um, it’s uh, conversation that you had, or conversation between Moore who was an investigator with the Toronto Police and Karla Homolka. I’m just going to play this. See if this, uh, sounds familiar or if it jogs your memory as to any conversation you may have had.

http://clip%20begins

Karla Homolka: Um, I think the only thing he ever said about her was that her boyfriend did it or something like that but there wasn’t any real extensive discussion. But he talked about like all, all the women disappearing.

http://clip%20ends

Detective Brad Hoover: And again, that, that was a conversation between, uh, investigator Tony Moore with Toronto Police Service and Karla Homolka. Does that conversation, does, that something you may recall saying that to Karla or talking about that?

Paul Bernardo: Well, you know, she went down with “Paul did it”. Catch phrase for the trial was “Paul did it, it was Paul” and this is, she’s continuing right there. She’s, you know, [inaudible]. The fact of the matter was I didn’t pay attention to any of it. I didn’t watch the news back then. I was too busy doing other things. I didn’t pay attention. The profile is “serial killer pays attention to the news and media, narcissistic personality blah blah blah” all that crap. I don’t know anything about this case now. I don’t know if this guy did it. I don’t even really care. I’m not the prosecutor, you know, do the right thing for society, blah blah blah.  I don’t know if he did it. I don’t know the facts behind if he did it and I certainly didn’t back then. So, to say that, for me to, she’s alleging that I made a statement “the boyfriend did it”. Well, you know, some cases I have followed because I am in jail and I have nothing to do but watch the TV. But I weigh the facts. You know, I take, you know, did OJ do it, for example.

Detective Brad Hoover: Right.

Paul Bernardo: You weigh the facts about whether he did or didn’t. He got out so that’s the law, but I would have to weigh the facts. I don’t know the facts of this circumstances so there’s no way I could make a statement such as that. How could I say he did it if I don’t know the facts of the case? So, no, she’s, she’s, she’s incorrect in her statement.

Detective Brad Hoover: And it may depend on when that conversation took place between her and that investigator.

Paul Bernardo: Well, Moore, wasn’t he back when that deal was made? Moore, I remember reading on transcripts [inaudible] from day one. When she signed her little twelve year deal, no polygraph required. Hey, [laughs] I’m giving you guys the truth here. You guys could prove me wrong, go down there, ask her, you’ll get a “no”, I keep telling you, no one does it. But um, I don’t know why. But you know, that sounds like a conversation, that’s what you do, pin it all on the other person, you know, you paint that scenario.  [inaudible]

Detective Brad Hoover: Um, do you, do you know of Robert Baltovich.

Paul Bernardo: I’ve seen him on, you know, [inaudible] T.V. or whatever. Like I said, I purposely avoided this case.

Detective Brad Hover: Alright.

Paul Bernardo: I don’t, I don’t like up, this shit on my mind. You know what I mean? Needing to, you know…Unfortunately when Karla came on I watched to sort of discern truth from fiction a couple years ago but otherwise I don’t like to get into these things. I have had a hundred lifetimes of this stuff. You know, so, and I don’t want my mind poisoned with this and this and this. So, this case I avoided as much as possible, but I have seen his face on the T.V.

Detective Brad Hoover: Right. Anything else you would like to tell us about this investigation?

Paul Bernardo: No.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay the time now is uh 2:35 and we’ll conclude this portion of the interview.

 

 

 

Lamora Williams Case Summary

In 2017, Lamora Williams was a 24-year-old newly single mother of 4 children. Sometime between the midnight of October 12th and 11 p.m. on October 13th, she is accused of having placed her two youngest children in an oven and turning it on.

According to Williams’s family, she has always been troubled, and it was only made worse by the children’s father leaving them and possibly postpartum depression. LamoraWilliams’s sister, Tabitha Hollingsworth, noted that the behavioral and emotional problems started young and recalled Williams attempting suicide. Brenda Williams, Lamora Williams’s mother, said that she was a slow learner to the extent that she had to be pulled out of public school to be homeschooled.

At 18 years old she had her first child, a daughter. He daughter’s father’s family helped Williams. After this relationship failed, she got into a long-term relationship with Jameel Penn Sr. and had 3 children with him. In 2017 when Williams was 24, Jameel Penn Sr. left Williams and her children, but still assisted her with the children and finances. Penn and young sonsWhen Penn broke it off with Williams, Williams’s mother told Penn that “something tragic was going to happen to those kids, she’s going to do something to herself”. Williams’s mother also tried to get custody of Williams’s children or otherwise have them removed from Williams’s care after Williams’s father’s death. In a call to the Division of Family and Children Services, Williams’s mother expressed concern about her daughter’s mental health and was worried that she was not feeding her children. This concern is backed up by Williams’s sister stating that Williams regularly left the toddler children alone.

On the evening of October 13th, Williams’s close friend Neesa Smith received a call where Williams was in obvious distress. When Smith asked Williams what was wrong, Williams simply stated she couldn’t do it anymore. She went on to tell Smith that her two youngest children, 1 year old Ja’Karter and 2 year old Ke-Yaunte, were dead. Smith pushed for Williams to call the police. Instead of calling the police, Williams next video called the children’s father, Jameel Penn. During the call, Williams panned her camera around her apartment and Penn saw his sons on the floor. He then promptly called the police.

At 11:30p.m., Williams’s also called the police. In the 911 call, Williams claimed she left Lamora Childrenher children with her cousin (then changed it to sister) and found her children dead when she returned home from work. She stated that one child was trapped underneath a “pulled over” oven, both burned, and claimed there were “brains on the floor”.  During the same 911 call, Williams showed great worry over going to jail and asked the dispatcher to reassure her about the possibility of going to jail. The 911 call transcript can be found here.

Police, fire and ambulance arrived at the scene and the two youngest children’s burned bodies were found. Williams’s 3-year-old son, Jameel Penn Jr. was also found unharmed inside of the residence. Williams first child was with other family members during the event. Detectives did not believe Williams’s story and she was arrested.

Some of the charges Williams faces includes felony murder, aggravated assault, cruelty Lamora Mugshotto children in the first degree, cruelty to children in the second degree and making a false statement. Prosecutors believe that Williams may have burnt her two youngest children in an attempt to conceal how she murdered them. Williams pleaded not guilty to the charges. In the aftermath, Williams’s sister expressed concern and state that Williams should be placed on suicide watch in the jail. Williams’s mother holds her daughter accountable for her actions  while still recognizing that she had problems. She has stated that she may need to seek help herself after losing her “to youngest grand kids because of the actions of her daughter” and that it has been very difficult.

 

Lamora Williams 911 Transcript

Sometime between the midnight of October 12th and 11 p.m. on October 13th in 2017, Lamora Williams is accused of having placed her two youngest children in an oven and turning it on in her apartment in Atlanta Georgia. In the 911 call she placed, she said that she had left her child with a family member while she was at work. When she returned home, her children were dead, one stuck under an oven, both burned, and claimed there were “brains laid out on the floor”. Her family reports that she had long standing untreated mental illness and detectives did not believe her story. She was charged with her children’s murders. A case summary can be found here. 

Lamora Williams 911 Transcript

Dispatcher: Atlanta 911, Operator 7054, what’s the address of your emergency?

Lamora Williams: Yes. Ma’am, Ma’am, I have a question, and this is a serious matter. Um, I just left, um, my cousin in the house with my kids. Um, she just left my kids in the house when I came back from work,

Dispatcher: Mm-hm

Lamora Williams: and my kids, two of my kids are dead. What am I, what am I, what do I gotta do? They’re dead. She left them dead in the house by theyselves.

Dispatcher: Okay, ma’am, where are you now?

Lamora Williams: I’m in my house. She left my door open. My baby boy, my oldest baby boy is the only one that’s here and only one that’s alive. She left, she left them, she left them in the house by theyselves. She left them in here, and they’re not…

Dispatcher: Okay, hold…

Lamora Williams: Can you listen? When I came in, the stove was layin’ on my son, my youngest son’s head, and my other son was laid out on the floor with his brains laid out on the floor. I don’t know what to do, I just came home from work to this.

Dispatcher: Okay.

Lamora Williams: My baby’s dead.

Dispatcher: Okay, ma’am, I’m gon-gonna get EMS and I’m going to get, um, police and fire at the location. Can you tell me where you’re located?

Lamora Williams: Um, um, um ma’am I can’t even talk. This is so serious. I’m so scared. I don’t want to get locked up, because I was there at work.

Dispatcher: Okay, ma’am [cross talk]

Lamora Williams: I don’t [cross talk]

Dispatcher: I completely understand that you’re scared. I completely understand but I need to get some help out there to you now. Can you tell me where you’re located?

Lamora Williams: I understand that, but please, can you please help me, like, can you please tell me, like, I don’t want to get locked up because this is not my fault. I had just came home from work. I just came home from work.

Dispatcher: Yes, ma’am.

Lamora Williams: I just came home from work.

Dispatcher: Okay, ma’am. The first thing that I need to do is get some help out there to you. I understand that you’re upset and scared.

Lamora Williams: They’ve been here dead. Like, it’s, it’s not, it’s aint no way in the fuck she left my babies dead…

Dispatcher: Okay.

Lamora Williams: …and I don’t have no way to reach her.

Dispatcher: Okay. If you, if you’re not sure, [cross talk] if you were at work, ma’am, listen to me. If you were at work while this happened, then the responsibility is going to fall on your sister. That’s who you left them with. Okay? But where are you [cross talk], can you tell me where you are? Where are you located now? Where are you?

Lamora Williams: I’m located in 979 Howell Place.

Dispatcher: Okay, hold on one moment because I’m also going to get EMS on the line as well, okay?

Lamora Williams: Yes, please.

Dispatcher: Hold on one moment. Yes, ma’am. stay on the line with me though, okay? Hold on one moment with me.

[beep, ringing, shuffling]

Lamora Williams: Okay.

EMS: EMS, what’s the address of the emergency?

Dispatcher: EMS, the call is at 979 Howell Place, Southwest. That’s 979 Howell Place Southwest.

EMS: Alright ma’am, what’s the phone number you’re calling from?

Lamora Williams: 404 [edited] 33

EMS: Okay. Tell me exactly what happened.

Lamora Williams: When I just came home from work, my babies were stuck in the stove dead, and I just came home from work.

EMS: Wait, wait, ma’am.

Lamora Williams: My sister was babysitting my kids and left my kids dead in the house, aint no tellin’ how long they been in this house.

EMS: Alright, wait, are you, is there, is there, is your son obviously dead? Is he breathing at all? Can you tell if he’s breathing?

Lamora Williams: He’s dead, he’s burnt. Both of my children are dead. Their head is burnt, they, the stove is laying on this floor. The stove, one of my babies is stuck. The stove is pulled over and everything.

EMS: Alright [inaudible], can we get PD and fire to this location? I’m operator 839

Dispatcher: Yes, we have PD and fire already en route to that location. I’m 7054.

EMS: Alright, thank you so much.

Lamora Williams: Please help me, please!

EMS: Alright ma’am, I’m en route. Okay?

Lamora Williams: Alright, thank you so much.

Debra Jeter Case Summary

On June 5, 2009, 32-year-old Debra Jeter slit the throats of both of her daughters in an abandoned house off of Interstate 77 in Hillsboro, Texas. Warning signs dated back several years. In 2004, authorities determined that Debra Jeter was physically abusing her older daughter, Kiersten, but the case was dropped after Debra Jeter received mental health treatment.

For reasons not disclosed, in May 2009, Lester Lee Jeter filed court documents to separate from his wife, Debra. Taking the separation badly, on May 22 Debra Jeter attempted suicide by consuming pills in front of her two daughters she had with Lester Jeter. Debra was temporarily institutionalized in a mental health facility. The day after the suicide attempt while Debra was still inpatient, Lester Lee Jeter filed for divorce, obtained a debra-jeter-2temporary restraining order, and was given temporary custody of his two children. In court documents, Lester Lee Jeter stated that “she may be released within a few days, and I am concerned about her possible actions regarding the children” and that he was requesting custody “to protect the safety and well-being of the children and any other person who has been a victim of family violence committed by Jeter”. The day after her release, though, a judge lifted the restraining order and allowed for unsupervised visitation during a hearing. The first court ordered visitation was set for that Friday, June 5th, 2009.

After not seeing their mother for 15 days, 12-year-old Kelsey and 13-year-old Kiersten kelsey-jeterwere excited to see their mother with Kelsey posting on her MySpace page “I GET TO SEE MY MOM TOMMORROW!!!!!!! YAY!!!!!!!!!!”. Debra Jeter told Lester Lee Jeter that she had a surprise for the girls and was taking them out.

After picking up her daughters in the afternoon, Debra drove them to an abandoned house off Interstate 77 just past highway 35 towards Milford. Debra Jeter first attacked Kiersten with a knife. While fending off her mother, Kiersten screamed for her sister to run. This caused Debra to turn her attention from Kiersten and onto Kelsey. Kiersten was stabbed in the back while trying to protect her sister. Unfortunately, these attempts were unsuccessful, and Debra slit Kelsey’s throat and she died in the bathroom of the abandoned house. Debra returned to Kiersten and cut her from one side of the neck to the other, severing her airway and one of her main arteries.

Despite her severe injuries, she stayed alive and conscious and pleaded with her mother debra-jeter-3to get help. Three hours after picking up her children, Debra Jeter called police to report the crime saying, “I just killed my children”. Even though Debra Jeter was a nursing student, she did not tend to her daughter, instead walked around the abandoned house urging the ambulance to hurry up stating that her daughter that survived is “asking to be saved and she couldn’t handle it”. She also went on to ask the dispatcher to ask the police not to shoot her as she didn’t have a gun. The complete transcript can be read here.

Sadly, the sweet quiet book-loving Kelsey did not survive the attack. Kiersten was air lifted for immediate emergency surgery after being found in the bedroom of the debra-jeter-1abandoned house and survived. Debra’s explanation for her heinous actions was that she was “heartbroken” over the separation and the child custody battle. Her ex-husband, Lester Lee Jeter stated that Debra “figured if she felt that way, then we all must feel that way and she wanted to take away all of our pain”.  After accepting a plea deal where she pleaded guilty to capital murder and attempted capital murder on May 27, 2010, Debra Jeter was sentenced to life without parole. The plea deal avoided the possibility of the death sentence and spared her surviving daughter from having to testify in court.

Debra Jeter 911 Call Transcript

Two weeks after Debra Jeter was temporarily institutionalized in a mental facility for a suicide attempt in front of her two daughters, Jeter slit the throats of her daughters Kiersten (13 years old) and Kelsey (12 years old). The older daughter, Kiersten, survived the attack with severe injuries. Aside from the slashed throat, Kiersten was found to have a stab wound in her back, presumably from an attempt to shield her younger sister from the attack. Unfortunately, she did not survive.

Debra Jeter 911 Call Transcript

Dispatcher: Hill county 911, what’s your emergency?

Debra Jeter: I just killed my children.

Dispatcher: Excuse me?

Debra Jeter: I just killed my children.

Dispatcher: Where are you?

Debra Jeter: Um, I’m in the abandoned house on highway 77 right after you go underneath the highway. One of them is still alive, hurry.

Dispatcher: M, How, under what highway? You’re on highway 77, where?

Debra Jeter: I am on highway 77 right after you go under 35 going towards Milford. Get an ambulance out here to save the one that didn’t die, common, hurry up.

Dispatcher: What’s your name?

Debra Jeter: Bitch, call them! Have you already called them?

Dispatcher: Yes, ma’am, I have.

Debra Jeter: Okay.

Dispatcher: I need your name.

Debra Jeter: I don’t want to tell you my name.

Dispatcher: Hello?

Debra Jeter: Hello.

Dispatcher: Are you still there?

Debra Jeter: Yes, I’m still here.

Dispatcher: 77 towards Milford right after you cross under the bridge. She’s telling me she’s killed her children.

[deep breathing]

Dispatcher: Are you in your car?

Debra Jeter: No, I’m not in my car. I’m in the house walking around and um, one of them is still alive for real. She’s asking to be saved and I couldn’t handle that and so now… [cross talk]

Dispatcher: She thinks she’s in an abandoned house [inaudible]

Debra Jeter: It’s been a long time, she might already die because she’s bled out a lot and… hold on. What baby? [inaudible] What did you say? I’m on the phone with 911. [inaudible daughter] She said please [inaudible] hurry.

Dispatcher: Okay. Well I’ve, we’ve got people in route. Get an ambulance because one of them is still alive, she said. Can you tell me what happened? Ma’am. Hello? Ma’am.

Debra Jeter: What?

Dispatcher: Can you tell me what happened?

Debra Jeter: I can’t get the door open.

Dispatcher: You can’t get what door open, darling?

Debra Jeter: The front door so ya’ll can get in when ya’ll get here. Why won’t it open?

Dispatcher: I don’t know.

Debra Jeter: Hold on. [inaudible]

Dispatcher: Are you on the right hand side of the road or the left hand side of the road, sweety?

Debra Jeter: I’m at [inaudible] side of the road. They know where it’s at!

Dispatcher: They’re coming, they’re coming. I just, I just want to try to clarifor, clarify exactly where they are.

Officer over radio: [inaudible] both in the car.

Dispatcher: Can you tell me what happened?

Debra Jeter: I don’t want to tell you. I tell you what, they’re not coming.

Dispatcher: Well, they’re on their way. My partner is getting, getting them to you just as quickly as she can.

[officers over radio]

How many…

[sirens and officers over radio]

Dispatcher: how many children did you have?

Debra Jeter: Two.

Dispatcher: Huh?

Debra Jeter: Two.

Dispatcher: Two?

Debra Jeter: One of them’s dead. One of them is dead. She’s dead dead. But the other one wants to be saved and I’m, she needs to be saved. And I tell you what, they need to get the fuck out here.

Dispatcher: Honey, they’re coming.

Debra Jeter: [cross talk] …get here.

Officers over radio: [inaudible] abandoned house 1-17 we need more information, is she armed?

Dispatcher: Do you have any weapons?

Debra Jeter: Um, I do, I have a knife.

Dispatcher: She has a knife.

[officers over radio]

Debra Jeter: Should I throw it away?

Dispatcher: No, no ma’am. Just, just put it… She’s got a knife.

Officers over radio: She got a gun?

Debra Jeter: Please hurry.

Dispatcher: Tell her we’re on her way.

Officers over radio: Do you know her name or anything?

Dispatchers: She won’t give me. Can you not tell me what your name is?

Debra Jeter: [inaudible]

Dispatcher: Huh?

Debra Jeter: [inaudible]

Dispatcher: What’s your name, darling?

Debra Jeter: I’m not telling you my name [inaudible].

Dispatcher: How old are your children?

Debra Jeter: Hold on, it’s a what? On the phone. God damn it hurry up!

Dispatcher: Honey, they are coming. They are on their way. You should be hearing lights and sirens. Seeing lights and hearing sirens.

Officers over radio: [inaudible] is going on [inaudible]

You said just, you cross under the bridge that goes to, on 77 towards Milford, you crossed under the bridge to 35 and you’re in an abandoned house. Is that right?

Debra Jeter: Yep. Under 35..

Dispatcher: Cross under

Debra Jeter: 35 on 77, abandoned house up on the hill on the left. Hurry the fuck up.

Officers over radio: 1-6 being routed from…

Dispatcher: She says she’s in the abandoned house…

Officers over radio: [inaudible] 77 and the interstate

Dispatcher: yes, the house on the hill.

Debra Jeter: [inaudible] Hold on, baby.

Dispatcher: Honey, do you hear them now? Hear those sirens and stuff?

[officers over radio]

[Debra and daughter talking inaudibly]

Dispatcher: Shes…

Officer over radio: 10-4

[Debra and daughter talking inaudibly]

Officer over radio: [inaudible] do you know where that house is?

Officer over radio: Nah, I not sure where that house is at]

Officer over radio: [inaudible] you cross under the bridge I know there’s going to be an old grey house that’s off on the left-hand side. It’s going to be hard to see. It’s almost covered by trees and stuff like that.

Dispatcher: Are you still there?

Debra Jeter: I’m here.

[Officer over radio]

Dispatcher: Are you still with me?

Debra Jeter: I’m still with you.

Officer over radio: I’m headed your way from [inaudible]

Debra Jeter: How do they not see it?

Dispatcher: [inaudible]

Debra Jeter: But they’re not here. I’m here, they’re not here.

Dispatcher: They’re on their way, sweetheart. They had to come from different parts of the county.

Debra Jeter: Hold on kid, they’re coming. Tell them not to shoot me. I don’t have a gun.

Dispatcher: Okay. She doesn’t want to get shot ‘cause she doesn’t have a gun.

Another dispatcher: We told them she has a knife so when they get there tell her…

Dispatcher: Okay, when they get there…

Debra Jeter: Uh-huh.

Dispatcher: …I want you to lay the knife down. [radio] Uh, when you get the door open, I want you to lay the knife down so they can see you don’t have any weapons.

Debra Jeter: Okay.

[sirens and officers over radio]

Debra Jeter: Tell them to hurry.

Dispatcher:  They’re hurrying, honey, they’re hurrying.

Officer over radio: 1-17, I’m going to be on the interstate uh, southbound taking the exit uh, which way do I go when I get to uh

Dispatcher: Okay.

Officer over radio: I believe to the right if you’re going northbound trying to find the house []

Debra Jeter: Oh my god, she’s dead. Oh my god.

Dispatcher: How old are the children?

Debra Jeter: I’m not telling you. [inaudible] She wants you to hurry. She wants you to hurry.

Dispatcher: Honey, they are coming. They are coming as fast as they can. They’re trying to be sure…

Officers over radio: [inaudible] to your right.

Dispatcher: Do you see them?

Debra Jeter: They’re coming.

Dispatcher: Do you see them?

Debra Jeter: Still.

Possibly Kiersten Jeter: Okay.

Officer over radio: [inaudible] abandoned house.

Dispatcher: Do you see them?

Debra Jeter: No. Some [inaudible] Hold on.

Officer over radio: Yeah, the one back off in the trees

Debra Jeter: [inaudible] I see something.

Dispatcher: Do you see the lights?

Debra Jeter: No, I see something at the end of the road. I see car lights but not fire lights. Not police lights.

Dispatcher: She says she…

Debra Jeter: [cross talk] car at the end of the driveway.

Dispatcher: She says they, they’re at, see can see…

Debra Jeter: I hear sirens…

Dispatcher: Okay. Do you see them?

Debra Jeter: No, I don’t see them.

Officer over radio: [inaudible]Tell her she needs to come out with her hands up

Dispatcher: Okay. You need to…

Debra Jeter:  Coming [cross talk] the driveway

Dispatcher: I know, I understand. I want….

Debra Jeter: [cross talk] out the driveway with my hands up.

Dispatcher: She’s state…

Debra Jeter: Out the house with both hands up, except for one ‘cause, ‘cause I’m on the phone. They’re coming.

Dispatcher: She says she has her hands up except for the fact that the one that she’s on the phone with. She’s out in the yard. She said she’s out in the yard besides the house.

Debra Jeter: Okay, goodbye. I see them, they’re out here. Goodbye.

Dispatcher: Alright, bye.

Russell Williams Case Summary

Image result for Russell williams underwearRussell Williams is a formal colonel in the Canadian Forces. He has been convicted of sexual assault, two counts of first-degree murder, two counts of forcible confinement, and 84 counts of breaking and entering after confessing to the crimes on February 7, 2010 during a transcribed police interview. His crimes were fetish motivated. On October 21, 2010, he was sentenced to two life sentences, four 10-year sentences, and eighty-two 1-year sentences to be served concurrently. The earliest he can be paroled from the maximum-security prison Port-Cartier Institution will be at age 72.

Background

Russell Williams emigrated from England to Canada as a young child. His parents divorced when he was 6 years old and his mother remarried.Young Russell After completing high school, he obtained his Bachelor of Arts degree in economics and political science from the University of Toronto Scarborough. The following year, Russell Williams enrolled in the Canadian Forces. In 1991 he was promoted to Captain and married Mary Harriman. He was entrusted with flying government officials and foreign leaders, and in 1999 he was promoted to Major. In 2004, Williams obtained a Master of Defense degree from the Royal Military College of Canada and further promoted to lieutenant. Finally, a year prior to his arrest, he was promoted to colonel.

 

 Crimes and Victims

*The following may be disturbing to some readers. Details of sexual assault and murder are discussed below. Reader discretion is advised.*

Williams’s fetish related crimes start in September 2007, although he made a habit of waiting in people’s rooms in college to “play pranks”. Between September 2007 and November 2009, Williams broke into 82 homes, 61 of which went unreported or undetected. During these break in’s Williams would steal female underwear, sometimes of victims as young as 9 years old, take photos, and lay in their beds and masturbate. These crimes were all documented through photographs and videos he took, along with stolen items he kept and cataloged. His photos generally followed the same pattern with each victim.RussellFirst, he would take pictures of the victim’s bedroom in general and anything that helped identify the victim such as mail. Then he would take photos of undergarments in the victim’s drawer before laying them out on the bed or floor and taking more photos. The next photos would be of him wearing the underwear, and then him ejaculating, generally back at his house. He would meticulously categorize the photos, undergarments, and police and news reports. Of the people who he could not identify in their bedrooms, he would name the files in which their respective photographs were kept, “mysterious little girls”. He would also leave notes with some of his victims, one of which was “merci”, which means “thank you” in French, on a 12-year-old’s computer.

 

As time went on, William’s crimes escalated. One victim’s house he broke into a total of nine times. On the 6th time, he watched a woman get into the shower from outside of her window, broke in, got naked, stole her panties naked, then left the house before she got out of the shower to discover him. In another case of his fetish and crimes escalating, Williams got completely naked in masturbated in bushes outside of a teenager’s window. Russell3On New Years in 2008, Williams broke into a 15-year-old girl’s bedroom, and after taking undergarments and photographs, touched his genitals with her make up brush and left it behind in her bedroom to later be used. Williams obtained so much panties, bras and lingerie that he still had several boxes and bags of it despite burning much of it to make room. Between two victims alone, he stole around 60 items of intimate clothing.

Of the four sexual assaults, the first victim’s name has not been released. On September 16th, 2009, Williams cut the screen to the side window of the victim’s house and crawled in while she was asleep. He snuck up next to the bed and after watching her for a short while, hit her with his fist, waking her. They struggled, and she expressed concern for her young baby in the next room and her own life. He told her that he was not going to hurt her, took photos of her in various undergarments she had, stole some undergarments, and left.

The next victim was Laurie Massicotte. Williams removed a screen from the back window of her house, slid the window open, and climbed in.Laurie Massicotte was asleep on the couch in front of the T.V. in her living room. Williams hit her in the head with a flashlight in hopes of rendering her unconscious. This attempt was unsuccessful. Williams struggled with Masscotti, tied her hands behind her back and told her that there were other men robbing her house. He claimed to her that he was in charge of controlling her and that he would not hurt her if she complied with him. Because her hands were tied behind her back he removed her shirt by cutting it off of her. He took various photos of her in her underwear and sexually assaulted her over a period of two to two and a half hours before telling her to wait for a period of time before calling the police. He then went home a couple houses away and went to sleep.

 

The first murder victim was Marie-France Comeau, a fellow military woman who worked at William’s Air Force Base, CFB Trenton. Williams broke into her residence a few nights prior to her murder, stealing panties after wearing them himself inside of her house. On November 24, 2009, after listening to her having a conversation on the phone in her bedroom from outside, Williams went through her basement window and hid behind the furnace waiting for her to fall asleep. Comeau’s cat notices Williams and is fixated on him. Comeau comes into the basement trying to call her cat upstairs when she discovers Williams. Marie-FranceWilliams and Comeau get into a physical struggle where he hits her about her head with his flashlight in an attempt to knock her out, ties her hands behind her back, and duct tapes her mouth the prevent her from screaming. At some point during the struggle Williams ties Comeau to a pole in her basement and goes outside to put the screen back on the window to prevent anyone noticing something is amiss. Williams leads her up the stairs to the bedroom, but Comeau faints on the stairs and he carries her the rest of the way. Over a series of hours Williams rapes Comeau. While he left the room to check outside the windows for people coming, Comeau runs to the bathroom where she tries to get help through the window. He subdues her and brings her back to the bedroom. He attempts to strangle her, but she put up too much of a fight for him to successfully do so. Instead, he places tape over her nose (with her mouth already being taped) and holds her down on the floor face down until she suffocates. After her death, Williams then removes the tape and places her back in bed and pulls the covers up before leaving.

On January 28, 2010, Williams notices Jessica Lloyd on her treadmill as he drives past her house. Williams broke into her home through the kitchen window before she came home, then left. When she returned and she went to sleep he came in through the unlocked back patio door. He snuck up to the side of the bed intending to try to knock her out with his flashlight, but she woke up before he could. She was compliant to his demands so he did not hit her, instead placed a zip tie around her neck and told her if he did not like what she did, he would pull the zip tie. Over a span of three to four hours he raped and took pictures of Jessica Lloyd before loading her up into his vehicle and driving her back to his cottage closer to work (his wife lived at their newly built house). Image result for jessica lloyd russell williamsUpon arrival, they laid in his bed so he could nap, wrapping the rope that bound her hands around his body so he would feel if she tried to leave. She began to have a stress induced seizure sometime after more sexual assault, and he claims to have given her water, talked her through it, and had another nap on the floor with her after the seizure because she was exhausted. After taking series of photos of both her in different undergarments and him and her together, he told her he would bring her back home. They ate some fruit and then as they went to leave the house, he struck her on the back of the head with his flashlight. The blow rendered her unconscious with him believing that her skull caved. While she was unconscious, he strangled her. He then removed the zip tie, bound her body into a fetal position with duct tape, and placed her into the garage so he could go to work. After spending a time with his wife for a few days, he went back to his cottage and disposed of her body along a road behind a rock.  A roadblock on Highway 37 on February 4th discovered his Pathfinder’s tires produced the same tracks as those found outside of Jessica Lloyd’s house and he was brought in for questioning a few days later. There they found his shoe prints matched those found in the snow outside of her house and he confessed to both murders, the sexual assaults, and 82 break ins.

Conviction and Sentencing

On October 7, 2010, Williams plead guilty to all charges and on October 22, Ontario Superior Court Justice Robert Scott sentenced him to two life terms to be served concurrently, without the possibility of parole for 25 years. Williams’s commission and metals were revoked, and he was expelled from the Canadian Forces. In turn, his uniform was burned, medals destroyed, vehicle scrapped, and commission scroll shredded. Despite this, Williams is still entitled to his military pension, amounting to $60,000 annually. Williams refused to pay victim surcharge fines, which are only $8,000, leading to a lawsuit against him by one of his victims. This case was later settled. 

Russell Williams Police Interrogation Transcript

On February 7th, 2010, former Colonel in the Canadian Forces, Russell Williams, was interviewed by the Ottawa Police’s Detective Smyth. In this interview, Williams admits to the murder of two women and the sexual assaults of two others. He was formally charged with two counts of first degree murder, sexual assault, two counts of forcible confinement, and 84 counts of breaking and entering. A case summary can be found here.

**The following interrogation transcript includes details from the sexual assaults that had been edited out of the official Ontario Provincial Police transcript.**

Russell Williams Police Interrogation Transcript

Detective: Just have a seat here, Russ.

Russell Williams: The guy I was speaking with on whatever night that was, was Russ as well.

Detective: Oh, yeah?

Russell Williams: And, and he took, uh, took every number I had.

Detective: Yeah, oh they were uh, doing some pretty thorough interviews that night.

Russell Williams: Yeah, absolutely. I was…

Detective: Alright.

Russell Williams: Glad to see it.

Detective: Uh, I’m just going to move your gloves, uh, that’s a little microphone.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Just make sure it’s nice and clear, um, as you can see here everything in this room is, uh, videotaped and audio taped.

Russell Williams: Check.

Detective: Uh, ever been interviewed by the police in a, in a room like this before or?

Russell Williams: I have never been interviewed like this…

Detective: Oh, no? okay.

Russell Williams: This is the closest to interview for NIS for top secret clearance.

Detective: Oh, yeah? Alright, well, again Russell, I appreciate you coming in, uh, an investigation like this, I mean, I’m sure you can appreciate its been big news, uh…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Especially down, uh, Belleville way uh, and you know obviously our approach in cases like this is that uh, uh, we don’t give up on somebody being alive until…

Russell Williams: Mm-Hm.

Detective: We get evidence that they’re not so um, because of that we’re treating, uh, Jessica’s case as an emergent situation obviously.

Russell Williams: Absolutely, yeah.

Detective: Um, so we’re, we’re fast forwarding things that we might normally take our time with…

Russell Williams: Mm-Hmm.

Detective: Uh, and that’s why, uh, we’re here on a Sunday afternoon, uh…

Russell Williams: Sure.

Detective: So, uh, again I appreciate it.

Russell Williams: No problem.

Detective: Um, we’re going to do a pretty thorough interview today.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Okay, um, the reason for that is because, uh, the last thing we want is to be calling people back again and again and again, okay?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Um, so what we’re going to do is we’re going to go over a number of things and uh…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: I’m going to explain what all those are to you.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Okay, um, I’m a big coffee guy. I don’t know if you’re a coffee guy or not.

Russell Williams: I am a coffee guy, actually, yeah.

Detective: I don’t want to drink in front of you so, um…

Russell Williams: No, no, I appreciate that.

Detective: Alright, go ahead.

Russell Williams: I could, uh, definitely. Are they black?

Detective: Yeah, they’re just black with, uh, with sugar, uh…

Russell Williams: Uh, you could definitely uh, take [inaudible]. Well, I just started my gum so I’ll probably have it in a little bit.

Detective: Sorry, you what? Sorry.

Russell Williams: Gum, just..

Detective: Oh [laughs]

Russell Williams: I just put a piece of gum in.

Detective: There’s napkins here if you want to toss it or whatever.

Russell Williams: I appreciate that.

Detective: Alright, and again, um, like I said this interview’s going to be very thorough.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Um, but again, uh, I have a simple rule when I talk to people. It’s, uh, I’m sure you’re the same way. I treat people, everybody, with respect and…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: I’ll ask that you do the same for me. Um, so what we’re going to do is we’re going to start off by, uh, going through, um, what your rights are, okay?

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Just like everybody else.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Okay, um, have you been read your rights before?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: No? I’m sure you’ve seen it on TV a whole bunch of times.

Russell Williams: Oh, yeah.

Detective: But it’s usually the American version so…

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: I’ll go over it with you briefly, okay?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Uh, basically in Canada, uh, as you know, I’m sure is, uh, we all have, uh, our rights guaranteed under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Russell Williams: Right.

Detective: Okay, now, uh, Russell, just to avoid any confusion ‘cause some people do get confused when they’re talked to by the police is that, uh…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Um, you’re obviously not under arrest for today, okay?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Anytime you feel, uh, you want to leave here, you feel free to do so. The door’s not locked. Theresa will walk you down to the lobby anytime you want.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Okay, um, if there’s anything that comes up in our interview today, Russell, that uh, that you feel you want to talk, uh, to a lawyer about…

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Um, you just, uh, you just let me know.

Russell Williams: Sure.

Detective: Alright and the reason for that is when I explain to you exactly what’s going on here, okay, um, uh, Jessica, uh, Lloyd is um, is one of uh, four cases that we’re currently investigating.

Russell Williams: Right.

Detective: Um, and essentially what’s happened over the past, uh, uh, about four or five months…

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: Um, there have been four occurrences, uh, like I said, that we’re looking into.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Uh, two of those occurrences occurred in September of 2009.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Uh, and very briefly they were up in the, uh, the Tweed area.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Uh, they involved, uh, somebody entering uh, two different woman’s houses.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Um, in the evening hours and uh, committing, uh, sexual acts.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, uh, in, uh, November 2009…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Uh, a young lady by the name of, uh, Marie-France, uh, Comeau, uh…

Russell Williams: One of my people, yeah.

Detective: Yeah, was found, uh, murdered in her home in Brighton.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: And, uh, we believe that there was a sexual component to that crime as well.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: And um, then most recently we have Jessica Lloyd’s disappearance.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, so essentially when you look at those kind of crimes we’re looking at number of different, uh, potential criminal charges, alright?

Russell Williams: I hope so.

Detective: Um, we’re looking at issues, uh, all the way from the most serious one which is first degree murder.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Uh, kidnapping, uh, sexual assault…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Uh, break and enter with intent to commit sexual assault…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Uh, forcible confinement, okay? And, uh, so what I want to make sure you understand and this is what we do literally we talking to, is that clearly when we find out who’s responsible for one or all of those crimes…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Uh, they could be charged with one or all of those offences, okay? Whether it’s you or whether it’s anybody else, alright?

Russell Williams: I’d hope so.

Detective: And that’s why it’s important that we us, make sure the people understand what they have to and what they don’t have to do when they’re talking to us.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, so as I said before, any point today, uh, you feel the need you want to speak to a lawyer, uh, you let me know.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: And uh, we can take you to a room where you can do that in private. Okay?

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Um, do you have your own lawyer?

Russell Williams: I had a reality lawyer but…

Detective: Okay. [laughs]

Russell Williams: No, I don’t have a lawyer.

Detective: Alright, um, if at any point you want to make that call and you don’t know who to call…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Uh, we have a phone list of lawyers that, uh, are available to give you advice free of charge right over the phone.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Okay, so again if at any point today you want to, uh, take advantage of that you just let me know.

Russell Williams: Sure.

Detective: Um, is there any reason you want to call a lawyer now?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay. Um, couple other, uh, fairly simple and straight forward, uh, things that uh, you probably understand but, uh, again we go over them to make sure everybody’s clear…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Is that, uh, you don’t have to speak to me today, okay?

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: And the reason for that is because the law considers me to be what we refer to as a person of authority.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, probably similar to what you may be considered to be at the base.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Um, and because of that I can be compelled to appear before any Judge in the country basically to account for what takes place here today, between you and I, okay?

Russell Williams: Sure.

Detective: Okay and that’s the reason why everything’s recorded…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …because there can’t be a more accurate record than that, right? So…

Russell Williams: No, understood.

Detective: Um, another thing I want to make sure you understand is that, uh, you know you mentioned a second ago about uh, Miss Comeau, um, being one of your, uh, work associates. Uh, so I don’t know what happened since November, um, on the military side of things, uh, but what we want to make people clear on is that, uh, if you have been spoken to by any person in authority…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …or any police officer about any of those case, um, I don’t want what they may have said to you to, uh, um, make you feel influenced or compelled to say anything to me today, okay? Whatever you might have felt influenced or compelled to say to them earlier…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective:… you don’t have to repeat to me. You don’t have to say anything further, okay?

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: But obviously what you do say you know for the third time is…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: … being recorded, right? So, uh…

Russell Williams: Understood. These first two attacks that happened, uh, not that far from my place in Tweed. Well, the second one did.

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: We didn’t even know the first one had happened but, uh, I understand that was the reasonably close as well but the second one was, uh, was very close.

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: So certainly at the time the OPP did a, uh, went door to door…

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: …and, and, uh, within a couple of days, probably the same night, so I spoke with a couple back then.

Detective: Okay, um, yeah, and I’m, I’m aware of that…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: From, uh, looking at the different cases and essentially uh, Russell, uh, in a nutshell, that’s what we wanted to, uh, to talk to you about.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Okay, um, those four cases are, uh, a concern to us.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: And uh, you know you’ve kind of, uh, all most hit the nail on the head about, uh, some of our issues that kind of, uh, make us want to talk to, to, Russell Williams, okay?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Um, cause essentially uh, there’s a, a, a, connection, um, between you and uh, and all four of those cases. Would you agree, geographically?

Russell Williams: And that I, I guess I drive past, uh, yes, uh…

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams:… I would say there’s, uh, a connection, yeah.

Detective: Yeah, and that’s what, that’s why, uh, I’ll be quite frank with you, that’s why, uh, things kind of, um, uh, evolved when uh, the officers talked to you Thursday night.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Uh, we kind of went from there because uh, when I think you discussed with the fact that you were a, uh, a, a, Colonel…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …uh, at the base.

Russell Williams: I was in uniform at the time, so…

Detective: Yeah, so pretty obvious, right?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Um, so essentially, uh, then the connection with Miss Comeau, um…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …was made. Um, and I believe you’re uh, a door or two down from one of the two, uh, incidents, uh….

Russell Williams: Think, uh…

Detective: …in Tweed.

Russell Williams: … three doors down, yeah.

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: Very close, absolutely.

Detective: Yeah, exactly. So, uh, those are some of the issues I want to discuss with you.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, um, so just getting back to uh, those four incidents that we’re talking about, um, maybe you can just give me a little bit of history as to, uh, your arrival and the uh, and the base in Trenton, when did you start working there?

[edited]

Russell Williams: Friday, on the day I was, um, hm. Friday on the day I was at home most the time, most the day. I had the start of a stomach flu.

Detective: Okay, in Ottawa or Tweed?

Russell Williams: In Tweed.

Detective: In Tweed, okay.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: So, we backtrack then. So, all day Friday you’re at home?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: And then what time do you leave to go to the base to sleep there on the Friday night?

Russell Williams: Um, mm, not sure. Probably just, you know, went in for, just before bed. Uh, so I probably left Tweed at between 8 or 9 or so.

Detective: Okay, uh, and you get to the base and spend the evening there and get up for the five thirty…

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: That’s right.

Detective: So, we back track from there, um, you, when did you arrive at your home, uh, at the cottage? I want, I don’t want you confused between home in Ottawa and the home in Tweed, so.

Russell Williams: Yeah, yeah, understood.

Detective: So, uh…

Russell Williams: No, I have been in Tweed all week.

Detective: Yup.

Russell Williams: Uh, the week prior now, um, yeah. I think that’s the case. I was in Tweed all week. Flew Saturday, headed to Ottawa Saturday night….

Detective: Okay, so, um, if you didn’t have the stomach flu on the Friday, what was your schedule like?

Russell Williams: …I think it was 7 or 8, really.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Um, what would have been my schedule? Just a standard schedule in the office.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: So, um, I’ll just brief in the morning. Couple of, uh, couple of meetings. Can’t remember what the specifics on that were going to be.

Detective: Okay, so, um, Thursday night you slept at Tweed or you…

Russell Williams: Yup.

Detective: Alright, and what did you do Thursday during the day?

Russell Williams: Thursday during the day I was at the base again. Um, I think it was a very standard day. I can’t recall exactly but uh, yeah, nothing. Was not flying so I was at the base so I would have gone in early in the morning, back in the evening again.

Detective: Okay, do you remember what time you left the base that night?

Russell Williams: [sigh] Mm… I don’t remember anything peculiar so I would say, uh, I don’t know. Probably 7 to 9 somewhere in that range.

Detective: Okay, that’s when you left?

Russell Williams: Left the base, yeah.

Detective:  And what, what’s…

Russell Williams: It’s a 45 minute transit so…

Detective: 45 minutes home.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

[edited]

Detective: Now, I’m not going to walk you through November but I’m going to take you to a date that’s probably pretty fresh in your mind, uh, uh, the day that, uh, that Marie-France, uh, Comeau…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Um, do you remember how you found out, uh…

Russell Williams: I do, yeah. I was sent an email, um [sighs]. Well, as soon as the, uh, off staff in the base learned they told me.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: So I got an email. I can’t remember if it was late at night or in the morning but certainly I saw it. Uh, I want to say first thing in the morning because I had just come back from Ottawa. I was in Ottawa for uh, um, a set of meetings on one of the days, I can’t remember what, what day of the week we’re talking about but uh, yeah, no, I mean, obviously one of your people gets killed it, uh, gets your attention, so…

Detective: Absolutely.

Russell Williams: Everyone [inaudible].

Detective: And how did you know Marie-France Comeau?

Russell Williams: I only met her once. Um, she was on a crew, uh, I was on, uh, just after I got to the base.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: So, uh, I can’t even remember. I think it was a one day trip. Uh, I did a number of trips, uh, in Canada transporting um, our, um, you know troops for the first leg out of Edmonton. Uh, you know we tend to hopscotch them across, uh, until they get in the theater. So anyway, I, I can’t remember which trip it was but uh, I did a number of them out to Edmonton just to, to pick up the troops, bring them to Trenton, and then uh, put a fresh crew on and uh, ‘cause we fly out and back in the same day so pushing the edge of that uh, fresh crew on and continue on after a couple hour delay.

Detective: Okay. Do you know, uh, roughly when that happened?

Russell Williams: That we were on the same crew?

Detective: Eh, the time you met her, the one time there, yeah.

Russell Williams: It was soon after I got to the base so uh, I, I don’t remember exactly but I would say in the first couple of months so August, September.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Um, now you got that email…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …notifying you that something had happened.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Uh, do you have, uh, any kind of, uh, a clear recollection as to how your schedule is going that week?

Russell Williams: Well, I can’t remember what again, what day that, uh, the message came in. Just a second. Um, no, I can’t remember what day, the day of the week, but I, um… Let me think. There was all a bunch of activity, uh, spun up as a result, obviously. [sighs] No, I can’t remember the day of the week. Um, I’m just trying to think through the news reports I read. No. I’m sorry. I can’t remember what day that was but uh…Well, what I, what we learned after the fact was that the, um, MP’s had learnt uh, of her death. I think quite a bit after her body had been discovered.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: So, I think what happened, I’m sorry, just a second. Okay. So, I think, if I remember correctly, the MP’s learned late that evening, I can’t remember when. Obviously, her, her body was discovered. It’s probably in news reports but uh, so they learnt and then they passed it to OPS] so they immediately passed it to me.

Detective: Mm-hm.

Russell Williams: The MP’s work for the [inaudible] operations officers so they go, you know, through their chain of command and then as soon as the, uh, the duty watch officer had that information she advised me…

Detective: Okay, um, so again that…

Russell Williams: … along with some others.

Detective: Right, right. I’m sure it spread like wild fire.

Russell Williams: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Detective: Um, so, that particular week, uh, do you have any recollection, well, for instance, when you got the email, uh…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Do you remember where you were?

Russell Williams: I was at home in Tweed.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams:  Yeah.

Detective: Um, do you remember if that was a week you were, um, reasonably stable in Trenton or had you flown a bit?

Russell Williams: No, I had been in Ottawa. I had been in Ottawa earlier in the week, uh, for some meetings over in uh, in Gatineau for one of the um, [inaudible] C17 acquisitions. I was a project director when I was here in Ottawa for that so just some follow up stuff on that.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: So I had been here, um, at some point in that week. Again, I can’t remember how the days all fell together but um, I seem to remember that I got this word shortly after having come back from Ottawa. I, seems to me it was the same week.

[edited]

Detective: So, if we were to, uh, to you know, do a similar, uh, investigation into your background, is there, is there anything you can think of that anybody may have misinterpreted or anything, uh, in your history, that somebody might say “Russell Williams, uh”….

Russell Williams: Absolutely not.

Detective: …did this?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Be very boring.

Detective: What’s that?

Russell Williams: It’ll be very boring.

Detective: [laughs] alright, ‘Cause and essentially that’s what I’m looking at is that, uh…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Um, uh, you seem like a very intelligent person, and I think you can see how, um, a surprise like that would, uh, certainly…

Russell Williams: Absolutely.

Detective: … send some alarm bells on an…

Russell Williams:  There’s nothing.

Detective: …investigation. Okay?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Um, so the next thing we need to cover off is, uh, well, I’ll just ask you this straight out. Uh, given the types of crimes we’re investigating, uh, do you get much chance to, uh, to watch television shows, CSI, things like that?

Russell Williams: I do watch, uh, I prefer Law and Order but I do watch CSI occasionally, yes.

Detective: Okay, so you have an idea of, obviously the forensic capabilities, things like that, are out there.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: What would you be willing to give me today to help me, uh, move past you in this investigation.

Russell Williams: What, uh, what do you need?

Detective: Well, um, well do you want to supply things like fingerprints, blood samples?

Russell Williams: Sure.

Detective: Things like that.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay. Um, footwear impressions.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, alright. Um, I think that’s what we’re going, we’re going to ask you to do.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Alright, now we have a process we have to go through to do that.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Um, and for the blood sample, I don’t take the blood sample. We have specially trained officers that are trained to do that.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Uh, I’m going to step out and make sure they’re still available.

[edited]

Russell Williams: Can I assume you’re going to be discreet?

Detective: As possible, yeah.

Russell Williams: ‘Cause uh, you know, this would have a very significant impact on the Base if they thought you thought I did this.

Detective: Well, uh [inaudible] Russell, that’s one of the reasons we’re here on a Sunday afternoon.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Um, uh, the uh, military’s certainly been of great assistance uh, to us.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Especially in relation to Miss Comeau’s investigation.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: So that’s certainly one of the things that went into our decision to, to give you a call at home today and see if we could deal with this today.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: So, okay, um…

Russell Williams: ‘Cause it’s tough to undo the rumor mill once it gets started… but I appreciate that.

Detective: Okay.

[edited]

Detective:  Now that you’ve had some time to, uh, and I know we’ve been throwing a lot of things at you here but now you’ve had some time to, to think about things, um, is there anything, uh, that you’re concerned about, uh, that Buccal swab matching in any of those four residences.

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Um, is there, I guess, let me explain what I’m getting at here Russell. Okay, um, this is a significant investigation as you can, as you can…

Russell Williams: Yeah, absolutely.

Detective: Well, imagine…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Um, but, uh, that DNA is going to be uh, significant in our investigation both…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: … you know, quite possibly to help you, quite possibly to help us.

Russell Williams: Yeah, understood.

Detective: I don’t know yet, I don’t know what the result is yet.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Um, and I’ll go back to the example I gave you ‘cause they’re very similar, uh, issue, I think. Um, and you talked about the idea of discretion here…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, uh, you talked about the idea that, uh, um, you know, you, well I think hopefully you appreciate the fact of how we approached you here.

Russell Williams: Yeah, absolutely.

Detective: Um, and essentially, uh, we have no issues with that, okay? Um, we, we talked recently about, you know, the whole idea of any unusual sex acts of your history.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Um, but another thing can often happen in cases like this is that people um, become concerned about uh, um, things like extramarital affairs.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Uh, indiscretions along those lines.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Um, is there any contact that you may have had with any of those four women, um, that you may not want your wife to be aware of? Anything like that, that we should know about to try and uh, explain why if, if your DNA is found?

Russell Williams: [inhales deeply]

Detective: To help us understand why it may be there.

Russell Williams: Absolutely not. [sighs}.

Detective: Can you think of any reason, um, why we would find you DNA in any of those residences?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Let’s, let’s focus on well, for instance [edited] house, I believe.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Let me just check the name there. Make sure I’ve got the right address. Talking about the house that was just a couple doors down from you there on the, in Tweed.

Russell Williams: Couple doors down was…

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: Laurie, I don’t know her last name. I don’t know.

[edited]

Detective: Massicotte.

Russell Williams: I don’t even know what her last name is but uh, there’s uh, uh, the, the, woman down the road three doors down was…

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: … her name was Laurie. I don’t know her last name.

Detective: Alright, I’ll just make sure we’re on the same page here. Mm, yeah. My understanding is she lived at 76 Cozy Cove. Yeah, so she would be the one, the second one, uh, the second incident on you, on your road there.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Couple doors down. Ever been in her house?

Russell Williams: No. We met her once, I think the first summer, um, we were there, so in ’04.

Detective: Okay and that’s what I’m getting at. I, I’d, I, again this is a credibility issue.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Russ, because I, I don’t want to come and see you two weeks from now and say, you know, Russ, uh…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: … our CSI people were in that house uh, are you familiar with how C, uh, DNA works?

Russell Williams: I think broadly, yes, I…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: … would guess so.

Detective: Um, one of the challenges we have in 2010, DNA has become so, um, precise that uh, I guess the best way to explain it is, I can think of 15 years ago when I started in, uh, violent crime investigations…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: … um, for us to get DNA match the sample we had to find was, um, you know, probably would’ve filled half of on of these cups.

Russell Williams: Does it, yeah.

Detective: You know, ‘cause they destroy so much of the uh, the sample and, and, the testing.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Um, essentially DNA has become more and more precise to the point where when you and I walked in this room earlier today…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Uh, we could’ve sat down, talked for 30 seconds…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …walked out. CSI officer could’ve come in three, four days from now…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective:… did some swabs here and he would’ve found your DNA and my DNA…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: …and probably a lot of other people’s DNA.

Russell Williams: Sure.

Detective: Um, little bit gross to think about but essentially, uh, you know as we talk, um, we, you know, a little bit of aspirate comes out of our mouths….

Russell Williams: Yeah, no. I understand.

Detective: … that, uh, contains our bloods or uh, our skin cells contain our DNA…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …and that’s what I’m getting at. If you were ever in Laurie’s residence…

Russell Williams: Um…

Detective: Quite possibly, quite innocently, your DNA could be, uh, in that residence. Has there ever been a time you’ve been in there?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay, um, what about the other lady down the road.

Russell Williams: I hadn’t even heard that name so, no, I don’t, I don’t, actually know who that was.

Detective: Okay. Have you ever visited uh, um, Marie-France Comeau at her residence?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay, alright. Um, so you’re quite positive there’d be no reason why your DNA would be in any…

Russell Williams: Absolutely.

Detective: …of those…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …three locations. Okay, um, did you know Jessica Lloyd, even in passing for any reason?

Russell Williams: No, I didn’t hear her name until it was on the news.

Detective: Okay and the reason I’m asking you that, uh, is because, um, I know you were asked that question Thursday night and sometimes we find and again, this is one of those situations that can sometimes cause us to get into lengthy investigation is somebody that…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: …maybe doesn’t deserve it…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: ..uh, but what, what can happen sometimes is they, you know, somebody gets stopped by the police like you did and they, uh, get asked that question and people, when they’re stopped by the police, they can be nervous, okay?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Um, so they blurt out an answer and they start driving away and they’re all “why’d I do that” because the problem is, is that once they, uh, get asked again, then they feel compelled to maintain that answer for fear that if they change their answers…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …somebody could find that. Do you understand what I’m saying?

Russell Williams: I do.

Detective: Okay, so I want to make sure that’s not happening here. I don’t care what you said to the officers on Thursday.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Last week, um, if there’s any, uh, communication or contact between you and Jessica Lloyd, you seen her picture, right?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Around town.

Russell Williams: Yeah, I saw it.

Detective: Okay, ever seen her before?

Russell Williams: I don’t, no, I would say I have not.

Detective: Okay, alright. Alright, and you mentioned something about uh, doing some renovations at your, uh, at your property in Tweed there. Um, I think you said something earlier about tearing up carpet. Correct me if I’m wrong but…

Russell Williams: Oh yeah.

Detective: Okay, when did all that happen?

Russell Williams: In 2004, or 2005.

Detective: Okay, any recent, uh, renovations?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay, alright.

Detective: Just want to make sure I’m covering all the bases here. Um, okay, what kind of tires do you have on your Pathfinder?

Russell Williams: I think, um, I think they’re Toyo.

Detective: Okay, but do you have a brand name or sorry, uh, the, uh…

Russell Williams: I that, is that.

Detective: Make…

Russell Williams: Um, I don’t, sorry. The, the make is Toyo.

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: I don’t know the model.

Detective: Okay, just, uh, I’ll uh, read this off to you. See if it rings a bell… You ever heard of uh, does Toyo Open Country HTS…

Russell Williams: That’s sounds right.

Detective: Does that make sense?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, when did you have those tires put on your Pathfinder?

Russell Williams: Well, it’s the second version we’ve had of them so, uh, I think it might’ve been this past fall. They replaced other ones we had on the same…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Well, Toyo. I can’t say that they were the same exactly, the same model, but uh, our dealership here in Ottawa says they’re very popular for the Pathfinder so…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: … and they were good. They lasted a long time.

Detective: Alright, um, I’ve had uh, you were talking about the, the whole idea of the MP’s, uh, helping us with our investigation…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: … stuff like this. Uh, you have the same system as we do at our headquarters with the swipe cards…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: One of the things, uh, one of our investigators did is they made a call while I was talking to you there, um, because we’re trying to work through that week of the, uh, 23rd of November.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Um, 23rd being the Monday, uh, 24th being the Tuesday.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Um, what, what they’ve, what they’ve told us is that um, and I want to make sure I get this right, is that, uh, on the 23rd, uh, your swipe card was being used at the base, okay?

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: On Tuesday the 24th there was no use of your swipe card.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Okay, and then on the uh, the following days, uh, the Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, um, there was what appeared to be average activity of…

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: …your swipe card on the base. Does that make sense to you?

Russell Williams: It does but that says that I was in Ottawa on the Tuesday.

Detective: Okay. Do you remember where, uh, in Ottawa you were?

Russell Williams: Yeah, I was in uh, Gatineau with uh, as I said, meeting about the uh, C17.

Detective: Okay, um, now again I want to be fair to you here. We’re going back 2 months.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Um, are you sure that would’ve been the, uh, the day you were in Ottawa.

Russell Williams: Well, only because I wasn’t at the Base.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: So, I, I can’t remember honestly that that’s the day that I had the meeting in Ottawa but uh, if I wasn’t at the Base it was because I was there.

Detective: Okay, now if that is the day you had a meeting in Ottawa, um, do you remember being at the Base on the Monday, uh, the 23rd and swiping your card in and out? Do you remember what you would’ve done that evening to, to, to get to Ottawa for that meeting? Like, would it be, uh…

Russell Williams: I drove to Ottawa in the morning of the day of my meeting. So, if it was the Tuesday then I would’ve left uh, Tweed. It was a very foggy morning.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Uh, that morning and I drove in that morning…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: So, I would not have been at the Base, uh, the day I was in Ottawa ‘cause the meeting started at eight thirty or something.

Detective: Okay, so you leave the Base, you would’ve went home to, to your residence in Tweed.

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: And then you left Tweed in the morning and drove up to your meeting in Ottawa.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, um, you leave the, the meeting in Ottawa, is it a daytime meeting, an evening meeting  or do you remember?

Russell Williams: Uh, yeah it was, uh, uh, a daytime meeting. Finished, I don’t know, mid afternoon or so.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: We had lunch and then uh, finished. I think uh, my wife and I had dinner ‘cause she was here for work and then I headed back.

Detective: Okay, uh, well, that’s, these are the kinds of things I’m trying to draw out here. That’s helpful to us. Um, do you remember where you had dinner?

Russell Williams: [laugh] Uh, well, I don’t remember exactly the restaurant, but it was in Westboro ‘cause that’s where our house was being built at the time so we had dinner. You know, in a restaurant that we would expect to be able to frequent, uh, once the house was finished.

Detective: Okay, do you remember how you paid?

Russell Williams: Uh, one of us would’ve paid by Mastercard, mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, are you sure about that or…

Russell Williams: Pretty sure. That’s normally how we, uh…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: …we pay for meals.

Detective: Alright.

Russell Williams: Can’t remember if it was me or my wife that paid but one of us.

Detective: Okay, and do you remember which restaurant it was again?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay, alright, and you see where I’m getting at, right? I mean the, that can be very helpful for us…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: … because we can track…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: … uh that issue, right?

Russell Williams: Oh yeah.

Detective: And we can put somebody paying for a meal at, at a location.

Russell Williams: No, yeah. I was meeting with, uh, you know, 15 people or so that day so…

Detective: Okay, what time did the meeting end?

Russell Williams: [sighs] I would say between 3 and 4.

Detective: Okay, and um, are you sure that that’s the same day you went with your wife?

Russell Williams: Well, I think so. Yeah, ‘cause she was here and uh, I, I think that was the day we went to this restaurant in Westboro, yes.

Detective: Okay, um, you finished dinner and do you remember what you did that evening?

Russell Williams: I would’ve driven back to Tweed.

Detective: Okay, and you would’ve, now again, uh, I know we’re talking 2 months ago here but do you…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …remember specifically having dinner and then driving back to Tweed or uh, do you remember or are you just guessing here?

Russell Williams: No, I’m not really guessing. I mean, I, I believe that this night at this restaurant it was following the meetings in Ottawa…

Detective: Mm-hm.

Russell Williams: …and I, you know, kissed my wife goodbye and headed back to Tweed…

Detective:  Okay.

Russell Williams: …to go to work the next day.

Detective: Okay, um, alright. The, uh, the tires that you have on your truck right, the reason I want to ask you about that is there is, there, anytime I mean, that you recall, uh, where you were stopped, um, by the officers there…

Russell Williams: Yes.

Detective: …yeah, did they explain to you what the significance…

Russell Williams: Said that was her house.

Detective: That was her house, right.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: So you remember that location?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Do you remember what the crossroad was or…

Russell Williams: I don’t think there was a crossroad. It sort of just, uh, on the south end of 37.

Detective: Okay, um, when you get stopped at that location, has there been a time in the recent, uh, 1 or 2 weeks that uh, your vehicle has uh, left that road for any reason what so ever? Have you driven into a field with your vehicle at all, um, for any reason that you can think of?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay, um, so I want you to rack your brain here. This is important.

Russell Williams: Yeah, yeah.

Detective: So is there anything you can remember doing that uh, you know, would cause you to, to, drive off the road…

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: … at that section of roadway?

Russell Williams: No, that’s my early, uh, that’s the early part of the highway and I’m just heading North. It’s about 30 minutes from there to uh, no, probably 20 from there to my house.

Detective: Okay, um, would it surprise you to know that, uh, when the CSI officers were, uh, looking around her property, uh, that they identified um, a set of tire tracks, uh, to the north of her property, uh, looks as if a vehicle left the road…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: And uh, drove along the north tree line of, of, uh, Jessica Lloyd’s property, okay?

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Um, they took, uh, they, they, examined those tire tracks…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: And uh, they have contacts in the tire business, obviously.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Tire tracks…

Russell Williams: Mm=hm.

Detective: …are a major source of uh, evidence for us.

Russell Williams: Sure.

Detective: Um, shortly after um, this investigation started they identified those tires as the same, uh, tires on your Pathfinder.

Russell Williams: Really?

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Okay, one of the other, uh, one of the other things that they do to try and identify the type vehicle that may have those tires…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Well, they do two things. They talk to witnesses…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, um there was uh, a female police officer that actually drove by that location that evening.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: … and recalls seeing an SUV type vehicle in the field up to the north of Jessica Lloyd’s house, uh, consistent with uh, a Pathfinder.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: It may be consistent with other things but consistent…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …with a Pathfinder. Um, and they, uh, what they also do to try to identify they type of the vehicle is they look at, uh, what they call the wheelbase width.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, ‘cause different vehicles different makes, models, have wheelbase width so…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …they can take those 2 sets of tire tracks, measure the distance between them…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, and determine what the, uh, what the width is.

Russell Williams: Sure.

Detective: And then they can enter that into a vehicle database and it will spit out the types of vehicles.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, um, your Pathfinder’s uh, wheelbase width is very very close to the width of the uh, the, of the tires, uh, that were left in that field.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, um, do you have any recollection at all of being off the road?

Russell Williams: No, I was not off the road, no.

Detective: Okay, alright Russell. [sighs] Um, is there anything you can think of… Let’s go talk about Marie-Fances Comeau for a minute, okay?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Is there any reason at all you can think of that during our investigation, obviously we’re searching, uh, computers, things like Blackberries, right?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Electronic devices, uh, looking through houses for things that are in handwriting, written notes, diaries, things like that.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective:  Um, and I’m not at liberty to tell you what the content was but is there any reason at all that you can think of why Marie-France Comeau would’ve specifically referenced you in some of her, uh, in some of her writings?

Russell Williams: Not at all.

Detective: No?

Russell Williams: No, absolutely not. [laughs]

Detective: Okay, is there anything that she ever said to you that lead you to believe that there may have been something, uh, more than a passing interest with her towards you?

Russell Williams: Not at all, no. We spent, you know, one flight together talking. I’d go back occasionally and talk. No, I, uh, if that’s the case, that’s uh, that’s very surprising.

Detective: Okay, alright. Um, do you have any questions for me right now?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay, I’m just going to step out and see how things are going, okay?

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: I mean, it is a Sunday but there’s probably 60, 70 people working on this file so there’s…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: …a lot of things happening.

Russell Williams: Sure.

Detective: Uh, so let me go out and see what’s happening and then I’ll come back in and we’ll, we’ll hopefully, continue, okay?

[edited]

Detective: I told you when I came in here, uh, that I’ll treat you with respect and I’ve asked you to do the same for me. Um, we talked about the whole idea of how we’ve uh, uh, approached you here, okay. Uh, trying to be as discreet as possible.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, but the problem is Russell, is every time I walk out of this room there’s another issue that comes up, okay, and it’s not issues that point away from you. It’s issues that point at you, okay? And I want, I want you to see what I mean.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Alright, this is the footwear impression of the person who approached the rear of Jessica Lloyd’s house…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: …on the evening of the 28th and 29th of January.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, alright. Now I want you to keep in mind that this is slightly smaller, okay, than scale, okay?

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Alright, that’s not to scale. That’s, that footwear is actually bigger.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: If you look here on the ruler you’ll see that. Uh, one inch is just slightly smaller than an actual inch.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Alright, but this is the way it prints off on your computer.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: I’ll move this over so you can see what I mean, Alright? Essentially when you’re dealing with footwear impressions, um, we have a gentleman on the OPP who’s uh, basically world-renowned, uh, his name is John Norman…

Russell Williams: Mm.

Detective: …and essentially with footwear impressions, uh, you’re in a situation where you’re, you’re pretty much in the area of, uh, fingerprints.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, and essentially what we’re talking about here is when, especially when you start adding other pieces of, of, uh, information…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: …that, uh, support, uh, an investigative position.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, this is a photocopy of the boot that uh, you took off your foot…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …just a little while ago.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, now I’m not an expert in footwear impressions. I rely on the experts. Footwear impressions are very much like, uh, like fingerprint comparisons, Okay? You take a look at this print and again. This one print…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: …this person walked through. There’s several different prints to compare.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: So, we’re going to get features off of one print to compare features off another print to compare.

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: These are identical, okay? Your vehicle drove up the side of Jessica Lloyd’s house. Your boots walked to the back of Jessica Lloyd’s house on the evening of the 28th and 29th of January, okay? You want discretion, we need to have some honesty, okay? Because this is, this is getting out of control really fast, Russel, okay? Really, really fast.

Russell Williams: [sniffs] hmm [sighs]

Detective: This is getting beyond my control, alright? I came in here a few hours ago and I called you the way I called you today because I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: …but you and I both know you were at Jessica Lloyd’s house and I need to know why.

Russell Williams: Well, I don’t know what to say, it’s, um…

Detective: Well, you need to explain it because this is the other problem we’re having Russell, okay? Again, these decisions are made by me…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Right now there’s warrant being executed at your residence in Ottawa, okay? So your wife now knows what’s going on. There’s a search warrant being executed at the, your residence in Tweed and your vehicles been seized, okay? You and I both know they’re going to find evidence that links you to these situations, okay? You and I both know that the unknown offender, male DNA on Marie-France Comeau’s body is going to be matched to you, quite possible before the evening’s over, okay? This is a major investigation. The Center of Forensic Science is on call 24 hours a day helping us with this.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Your opportunity to take some control here and to have some explanation that anybody’s going to believe is quickly expiring.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, we’re applying, the investigators now applying for a warrant to search your office. Uh, these aren’t decisions that we can say yes or no to. This is the practical steps…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: …in an investigation like this.

Russell Williams: [sighs]

Detective: And Russell… Russell…

Russell Williams:  Mm-hm.

Detective: Listen to me for a second, okay? When that evidence comes in and that DNA match, when that phone rings, and somebody knocks on this door…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Your credibility is gone, okay, because this is how credibility works, alright, and I know you’re an intelligent person and you probably don’t need to hear this explanation but I also know your minds racing right now, okay, cause I sat across from a lot of people in your position over the years…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: …okay, the bottom line is, is that as soon as we get that piece of evidence that solidifies it…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: …DNA. Okay, as soon as the expert in footwear impressions, the expert in tire impressions calls me “yes, yes I examined those and they’re…”

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: “…a match”

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: It’s all over because as soon as that happens, where’s your credibility? Where’s your believability? You’re just another, um, and again, don’t take this the wrong way, okay, but you can see if you step outside this room in your mind, and imagine how people are going to view you, okay? If the truth comes out after the clear evidence is presented to you when you finally go “okay, I’m screwed now”…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

[edited]

Detective: What are we going to do, Russell? You know there’s only one option. What are you, what are you, what other option is there?

Russell Williams: What’s the option?

Detective: Well, I don’t think you want the cold blooded psychopath option. I might be wrong eh, ‘cause don’t get me wrong, I’ve met guys who actually kind of enjoyed the notoriety, got off on it. Got off on having that label. Bernardo being one of them. I don’t see that in you. If I saw that in you, I wouldn’t even be back in here talking to you, quite frankly, but maybe I’m wrong. Maybe you got me fooled. I don’t know. This is over and it can have a, a bad ending where Jessica’s parents continue wondering where her daughters lying.

Russell Williams: [sigh]

Detective: I don’t know. I mean, obviously there’s a huge search still under way and it will continue, it will continue until her body’s found. That might even happen tonight for all I know. Once that happens, then I don’t know what other cards you would have to play. What are you going to do?

[silence]

Detective: Russell, what are we going to do?

Russell Williams: Call me Russ, please.

Detective: Okay, what are we going to do, Russ?

Russell Williams: [sigh]

Detective: Is Jessica somewhere we can find her easily? Like is it something where I can make a call and tell somebody to go to a location they’re going to find her or is this something where we have to go and, and, um, take a walk…

Russell Williams: [sigh]

Detective: Which direction are we heading in here?

[Silence]

Detective: Russ, maybe, maybe this would help, can you tell me what the issue is you’re struggling with?

[Silence]

Detective: What’s the issue you’re struggling with?

Russell Williams: [sigh]

[Silence]

Russell Williams: [sniff] It’s hard to believe this is happening.

Detective: Why is that?

[Silence]

Detective: Why is it hard to believe?

Russell Williams: [sigh]

[Silence]

Russell Williams: Um, it’s just, it’s just hard to believe. [sigh]

Detective: Who’s decision was it, when we’re going to find out the answer to this anyway but who’s decision was it to issue the, uh, directive to the base personnel that nobody had to speak to the police and to seek legal counsel before they were questioned. Because my unders…

Russell Williams: I don’t think that was issued.

Detective: My understand that direction came from somebody that reports to you. What do you think they’re going to say?

Russell Williams: Well…

Detective: Russ…

Russell Williams: No, no.

Detective: What do you think they’re going to say, alright? Uh, and lets, lets step back for a second here, okay? I really don’t think it benefits you or makes you look any better to start debating the little issues.

Russell Williams: No, no but that is news to me.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: I have a legal officer that reports to me…

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: …who may have given that direction…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: …but that’s the first time I’ve heard it, if that’s true, that’s the first time I’ve heard that.

Detective: Alright, and that may be the case but how does it look? We’re not even dealing with something that’s really, uh, evidence cause it’s not needed, I mean…

Russell Williams: No, no but that…

Detective: We’ve got DNA and all this over stuff that’s not even needed.

Russell Williams: What was the direction?

Detective: I don’t recall but it was something along the lines of, uh, telling the people on the base that they didn’t, uh, they weren’t required legally to speak with the police and they should seek legal counsel before the decide to speak but…

Russell Williams: Well if that was, if that was actually said, it would not have been to the base at large. It, it may have been to the individual they, uh, the boyfriend who is the suspect.

Detective: Well, I understanding it went out to all personnel.

Russell Williams: No, absolutely not.

Detective: Maybe, maybe, no, only on your command, I don’t know.

Russell Williams: It didn’t.

Detective: Right, okay. That’s fine.

Russell Williams: I did never see it.

Detective: That’s fine. Now let’s get back to the issue.

[edited]

Detective: What’s that?

Russell Williams: When you talk about perception my only 2 immediate concerns from a perception perspective are what my wife must be going through right now…

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: … and the impact this is going to have on the Canadian Forces.

[edited]

Detective: Where do we go? Russ, is there anything you want from me? Is there anything you want me to explain? Is there something missing you’re struggling with that I can shed some light on for you?

Russell Williams: [sigh] No, I’m struggling with how upset my wife is right now.

[edited]

Detective: Russ, what are you looking for?

Russell Williams: I’m concerned that they’re tearing apart my wife’s brand new house.

Detective: So am I but if nobody tells them what’s there and what’s not, they don’t have no choice.

[edited]

Detective: Computers have been brought to Microsoft in California. They’ll be, they’ll be picking apart, you can’t erase things from computers, it doesn’t happen, I’m sure you’ve seen that, I’m sure that’s pretty common knowledge these days. It just doesn’t happen. They sell programs that uh, to try and help people clean their computers and stuff and our guys are pulling that stuff out all the time. The FBI’s pulling that stuff out all the time. This investigation will end up costing no less than ten million dollars, easy and they will say no to nothing. Any requests this major case manager makes on this case, they’ve already been told it’s approved, don’t even bother asking. So, what I am doing, Russ, I put my best foot forward here for you, bud, I really have. I don’t, I don’t know what else to do to, to make, make you understand the impact of what’s happening here. Do we talk?

Russell Williams: I want to um, minimize the impact on my wife.

Detective: So, do I.

Russell Williams: So how do we do that?

Detective: Well, you start by telling the truth.

[Silence]

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Alright, so where is she?

[Silence]

Russell Williams: Got a map?

Detective: Um, is she close to where she lives? I got maps of that general area. Which town is she near? Why don’t we start there?

Russell Williams: I’m not sure but if you give me a map of um, that covers Kaladar down to the highway and over to Tweed and south, I’ll show you.

Detective: Let me see what I got here. I might have something. Is she inside, outside?

Russell Williams: Outside.

[Silence]

Detective: That’s probably the biggest area that I have there, Russ.

Russell Williams: You need more. You need a real map.

Detective: So, where am I going on the, on here to get to her.

Russell Williams: [sighs] in this block here.

Detective: Okay, so you’re pointing to…

Russell Williams: You need a, a detailed map of that area and I’ll show you where she is…

Detective: Okay, is she close to a road?

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: Alright, um, is this something where, is she, is she buried or is she…

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: … Somewhere where if you walk there you would, you would fairly easily see her?

Russell Williams: It’s here.

Detective: Okay so she’s south of 7, uh, east of Tweed.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: West of 41.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: And uh, what’s this road here?

Russell Williams: I’m not sure.

Detective: Neither am I, okay. I’ll be right back, okay? Do you want any water or anything?

Russell Williams: Sure.

Detective: Okay, I’ll be right back. How long has she been there for?

Russell Williams: A little over a week.

Detective: Was it fairly quick from the time she left?

Russell Williams: Friday night.

Detective: Friday night.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: So, where does she go between Thursday night and Friday night?

Russell Williams: In Tweed.

Detective: With you?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: How long was she alive for?

Russell Williams: Almost 24 hours. Not quite.

Detective: Okay. Russ, you’re doing the right thing here, okay?

Russell Williams: Well, again, my interest is in, uh, into my, my wife’s life a little easier.

Detective: Yeah, okay.

Russell Williams: And with her family as well.

Detective: Oh, we share that interest.

Russell Williams: But there’s no, uh, your time in Ottawa is wasted really. I’ll tell you where the memory stick cards are.

Detective: Where are they?

Russell Williams: They’re in the house there but…

Detective: In Ottawa.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Whereabouts?

Russell Williams: Um, some in the camera bag, which they would have found in my office.

Detective: Mm-hm.

Russell Williams: And in the, when you walk into the office, on the left side, there’s a um, uh, desk, uh, drawers…

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: …set of drawers like a filing cabinet, wooden, Ikea, in one of the top two drawers and there’s a plastic divider…

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: …and there’s uh, inside there, there are 2 memory cards.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Which are blank but I’m sure they can be re, uh…

Detective: And who’s images are on those cards?

Russell Williams: Uh, well, the, I have erased them but I expect, uh, you’ll be able to draw images of uh, Jessica and I.

Detective: What about Marie?

Russell Williams: There may be images on there as well.

Detective: And the 2 women from September?

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: Okay, do you have those images stored anywhere else?

Russell Williams: Yep, they’re um, 2 hard drives in the house in Ottawa. I can draw you a little picture of it.

Detective: Sure. Do you want to do that now while I’m…

Russell Williams: Sure.

Detective: …out getting the map, okay?

Russell Williams: Okay. [clears throat]

Detective: Want anything to eat or anything? I’ll leave that right there, okay?

Russell Williams: Thank you. But I do want to talk to you again.

Detective: That’s the plan, okay? I’ll be right back.

Russell Williams: Okay.

[Door shuts]

Detective: How you making out there? How you making out?

Russell Williams: Alright.

[Door shuts]

Detective: I got somebody running around looking for an actual map but uh, I did the same thing with uh, the Google maps except blew them up a little bit more, um, this is the, this is the biggest of the area. I’m hoping this might have better parameters for you. There’s Tweed.

Russell Williams: Point 7, a kilometer from this intersection on this side of the road.

Detective: And what road is that? Cary?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: South of, can’t read that word, uh, East Hungerford.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Does that make sense? Oh, there it is, there. Okay.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: How far off the road is she?

Russell Williams: 40 feet.

Detective: Is she bur.., is she covered with anything?

Russell Williams: No, she’s wrapped up.

Detective: In what?

Russell Williams: And she’s on the surface. Just a grey something or other cover.

Detective: Okay, very obvious question I’m going to have for you is when they go there, and they’ll be there shortly…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm…

Detective: They’re going to find her?

Russell Williams: Oh yeah.

[edited]

Detective: Okay, I’ll be right back. You look like you want to say something.

Russell Williams: Just that the, this place, my wife, it’s been a dream for her, for a better part of the year so I’m keen to get them what they need and so they can leave her alone.

Detective: Okay, we, uh, we’ll going to do our best to keep it as low key as possible, okay?

[edited]

Detective: Okay, well, what do you want to talk about?

Russell Williams: I guess it’s, uh, pretty wide open now, eh?

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: What do you want to know?

Detective: Well, do you want to work forwards or backwards?

Russell Williams: It doesn’t matter.

Detective: Why don’t we start with Jessica?

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: How does that start for you?

Russell Williams: Um, well, I saw her in her house on her treadmill Wednesday night, I guess. And I noticed she wasn’t, uh, there Thursday so I got in the house to look around. Then, um, then I left. Noticed she’d come home, so I went back in through the back patio door while she was, uh, sleeping.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: So, I woke her up. Didn’t, um, didn’t hit her. I only hit her once, Friday night. [sigh]

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Well, so I raped her in, uh, in her house and then I took her to the car and took her to Tweed and um, spent the day in Tweed and I hit her, um, as we were walking. She thought we were leaving. I hit her on the back of the head.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: You want to know anything particular?

Detective: Well, um, what did the hit on the back of the head do?

Russell Williams: Well, I was surprised it, uh, her, her skull gave way. She was there and immediately unconscious, then I strangled her.

Detective: Okay, what did you hit her with?

Russell Williams: A flash light.

Detective: Okay, in the house or outside the house?

Russell Williams: In the house. Yeah, they’ll find signs of that.

Detective: Where in the house did this happen?

Russell Williams: In the main portion, just in front of the fireplace.

Detective: What do you mean they’ll find signs of it?

Russell Williams: Well, there’s quite a bit of blood I hadn’t expected. I expected to knock her out but obviously generated a lot of blood.

Detective: What did she bleed onto?

Russell Williams: The floor. It’s just a tile floor.

Detective: Okay. Did you clean it up or did you…

Russell Williams: I wiped it up. I know it’ll be, uh, easily spotted.

Detective: What makes you think that? Like, if I walked in that house…

Russell Williams: Well, you wouldn’t notice.

Detective: …right now, would I see it?

Russell Williams: You wouldn’t see it, not at all but uh, you know, the right science will…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Uh, will show it, I’m sure.

Detective: Okay, um, so when that happened was she, did she have clothes on or was she naked?

Russell Williams: Yeah, she was dressed.

Detective: Okay, so when we find her, is she going to have those clothes on, too?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Alright, um, okay, Marie-France, uh, Comeau.

Russell Williams: There was an open window in the basement of her, uh, her house. When she was away I went in there, um, a couple nights before, uh, she came home, looked around. I went back in there, uh, late at night when she was at home. Was on the phone in her bedroom. She actually discovered me in the basement. She was trying to get her cat to come upstairs and the cat was in the basement. It seen me and was fixated on me in the corner. She couldn’t get the cat up, so, uh, she came downstairs. Trying to get the cat and uh, I’m not quite sure why she uh, came over to me. I guess the cat was staring at me and she was wondering why the cat was staring at. The lights were on. So when she spotted me, I, uh, had the same flashlight. I subdued her, tied her up, brought her upstairs. And um, strangled her later in the morning. Well, more suffocated her with some tape [sigh] left her there.

Detective: How do you subdue her, when you said subdue her in the basement, what did you do?

Russell Williams: Well, I had the same flashlight and um, you know it was, she, she saw me right away so it was just, uh, hit her a couple of times and around her head trying and knock her out. Didn’t but um, was bleeding a little bit. Uh, eventually, um, after a struggle, subdued her.

Detective: Okay, any blood from that struggle?

Russell Williams: Oh, yeah. No, not, not a whole bunch but uh, the flashlight did break her skin a couple of times.

Detective: Okay. What area of the basement did that take place in?

Russell Williams: I was hiding behind the furnace, so she spotted me right there.

Detective: Okay, did she recognize you?

Russell Williams: No, I had, uh, stuff on my face.

Detective: Um, so you go upstairs, and you said, uh, she suffocated…

Russell Williams: Well, I suffocated her. I put tape on her, um, I put tape on her mouth and then I put tape on her, uh, nose and held it there so she couldn’t breathe.

Detective: Okay, um, what kind of tape was it?

Russell Williams: Duct tape.

Detective: What happened to it?

Russell Williams: Uh, well, I took it with me and uh, can’t, can’t remember what actually I did with that tape but uh, probably threw it in the garbage.

Detective: Did you use tape for any other purposes?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay, um, did she ever recognize you through this whole incident?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: What did you say you had on your face?

Russell Williams: I had, just a, a cover for my head. Just to, you know, uh, a sports, you know, pull over type like just a little cap kind of thing.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Just a [inaudible] or something and a um, just a headband over my nose and mouth so it covered most everything but my eyes.

Detective: Okay, um, now this flashlight, where is that now?

Russell Williams: In Tweed.

Detective: In the house?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: What kind of flashlight is it?

Russell Williams: It’s a red, uh, 3 double D, um, I’m not sure what brand it is but it’s metal, you know, or it’s aluminum. It’s like a big, um, I can’t remember what brand [inaudible] flashlights are [inaudible] yeah, it’s a big bigger one of those.

Detective: Um, did you take anything out of Marie-Frances’ house or Jessica Lloyd’s house?

Russell Williams: Uh, yeah, some of their, uh, underwear.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: That’s all.

Detective: And where’s that?

Russell Williams: Um, it’s in some boxes in the basement here in Ottawa in that wreck room. We just moved in so there’s boxes everywhere so on the same side as the furnace room. It’s sort of the back against the wall.

Detective: Okay, what do the boxes look like?

Russell Williams: Um, I think one’s a scanner, the box for my scanner.

Detective: Mm-hm.

Russell Williams: They’re, they’re all right next to each other so a quick look through the boxes there, you’ll find them.

Detective: How much underwear is in those boxes?

Russell Williams: Um, well, probably 60 pieces or so total.

Detective: All women’s?

Russell Williams: Yeah. 60 pieces of their’s.

Detective: Of who’s?

Russell Williams: Of Jessica’s and uh, Marie-France.

Detective: So, you took 60 pieces from between the 2 of them?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: I think so.

Detective: Alright, uh, and they’re in a like, when you talk about scanners, is it a computer scanner box?

Russell Williams: My computer scanner is up in the office and it’s box is down in the basement, so…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: …it’s inside that box.

Detective: Is any of the underwear in those boxes belong to anyone other than Marie-France or uh, or Jessica?

Russell Williams: Um, yeah, there’s some from each of the other 2 women.

Detective: Okay, uh, why don’t we talk about those 2 women?

Russell Williams: Mm.

Detective: Um, so the first one happened on the 16th and I don’t know why I can’t recall their names but uh [edited] the lady that was, uh, the closer to you.

Russell Williams: No, Laurie was closer to me.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: So the first uh, the first one [edited]

Detective: Mm-hm.

Russell Williams: So the first, uh, the first one of them, I just spotted her from her boat actually and I got into the house while she was uh, asleep. Noticed that she was alone and uh, I just hit her with my hand while she was sleeping. Subdued her mostly just my weight on top of her, um, had her, took off her pajamas, took some pictures, took some of her underwear and left.

Detective: And the other woman?

Russell Williams: Same kind of deal, I went through the back of the house. She was sleeping in her, um, not in her bedroom but her, you know, in front of the TV, very much the same story.

Detective: Anything different about that story? I mean, uh, pretty much the same story, exactly the same story are 2 different things, right?

Russell Williams: Yeah, no. Uh, not much difference at all. Um, I did have the flashlight, that time. I hit her with the flashlight and thinking it would knock her out. Didn’t, so I subdued her with my weight, took off her clothes, took some pictures and left.

Detective: Why do you think these things happen?

Russell Williams: [sniff] I don’t know… I don’t know.

Detective: Have you spent much time thinking about that?

Russell Williams: About why?

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: Yeah but I don’t know the answers and I’m pretty sure the answers don’t matter.

Detective: Well, let me, let me ask you this, did you like or dislike these women?

Russell Williams: I didn’t know any of them.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: I had met Marie-France that one time in the, in our airplane.

Detective: Okay, now, uh, I guess what I’m getting at, when you’re going through these things, um, are you in, well let me, Jessica cause she was there with you for the whole day, right?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: What kind of feelings were you experiencing while you were with her that day?

Russell Williams: [sigh] Uh, she’s a very nice girl.

Detective: Can you tell me why you killed her, Russ? Do you know why you killed her?

[edited]

Russell Williams: Well, I think I killed her because I knew that, uh, her story would be recognized.

Detective: Her story would be recognized? How do you mean?

Russell Williams: Well, ‘cause she knew I was taking pictures.

Detective: Mm-hm.

Russell Williams: So, because of the, um, 2, um, stories in Tweed that would have been a fairly…

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: Been quite obvious.

Detective: So, if you didn’t take pictures what would you have done with her?

Russell Williams: I don’t know.

Detective: I mean, she’s at your house, right? Um, well, let me ask you this, us it uh, 2 lived right and 2 died, what’s the difference in your mind between…

Russell Williams: Well, the um, yeah. Would be attention the first 2 got. Um, wasn’t very much focused on obviously, or for obvious reasons, uh, the pictures I took so anybody else telling stories about pictures, right, would have been [sniff] a fairly straight line.

Detective: Okay, but when, when this would happen with Marie-France, was, was, did you, uh, believe that you already a suspect for what happened in Tweed?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: So why, what were you concerned about?

Russell Williams: Well, because um, I was pretty sure that, uh, you know, that she was serving military, right?

Detective: Mm-hm.

Russell Williams: It would have been, uh, it would have been difficult for investigators to ignore that connection.

Detective: Okay, yeah. Makes sense, um, lets go back to Jessica then. Okay, um, see her on the Wednesday night, right? on her treadmill.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: How do you see her?

Russell Williams: She was in the basement window wide open, on a treadmill, as I drove by.

Detective: Okay. Do you go, did you stop to look at the house or how, how does that catch your eye as you drive by?

Russell Williams: Um, I was looking to see who was, who was where, don’t know that area very well so I was keeping my eyes open.

Detective: Okay, so you spot her on Wednesday?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Um, do you just keep on going or did you stop and take a closer look that night or anything?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: That night or anything?

Russell Williams: No, I kept going.

Detective: Okay, and you went back on Thursday night, right?

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: So back on the Thursday night, and you went, you went into the house before she came home?

Russell Williams: [cough] Yeah, she was out, yeah. Uh, don’t need those. tm, yeah, she was out, got in through the kitchen window. It was unlocked. Everything else was locked.

Detective: Okay, so you’re in there doing what?

Russell Williams: Looking around, looking around to see who lived in the house, it was just her.

Detective: Okay, and then what do you do?

Russell Williams: Well, I left the house and uh, and then she came home, hadn’t been in the house very long. So, I watched for a little bit to see if she as alone. She was. And I went in when she went back to sleep, went to, went to sleep.

Detective: Okay, so you go in, she’s sleeping and what do you do?

Russell Williams: [sighs] well, I, I snuck up to the side of her bed, expecting to uh, try to knock her out. She woke up but she did as I said. I didn’t hit her.

Detective: What did you say?

Russell Williams: I said lie down on your tummy.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: She did and I tied her up.

Detective: What did you tie her up with?

Russell Williams: Some, uh, rope that I brought.

Detective: So she’s on her stomach, how are you tying her up?

Russell Williams: Just tying her, her hands behind her back.

Detective: Okay, she got clothes on at that point?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: What kind of clothes?

Russell Williams: Sweats.

Detective: Alright, tie her hands behind her back and then, then what happens?

Russell Williams: I went and took her clothes off. [sigh]

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: [sigh]

Detective: And then what happened?

Russell Williams: I raped her.

Detective: Now rape can mean a lot of different things. What kind of sexual act took place?

Russell Williams: Just, uh, vaginal and oral.

Detective: Okay. Oral, who was preforming the oral sex?

Russell Williams: Uh, me on her and her on me.

Detective: Okay. Any condoms used or anything like that?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: No. So correct me if I’m wrong, vaginal intercourse, her preforming oral sex on you and you preforming oral sex on her?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Do you remember what order those occurred in?

Russell Williams: Yeah. I, um, started with the oral sex, then I raped her. Then later on I made her preform oral sex on me.

Detective: Okay. Anything, any kind of conversation happening when this is going on?

Russell Williams: Yeah, a little bit.

Detective: What was being said?

Russell Williams: Well, I threatened her before she, before I had her perform oral sex.

Detective: What did you say?

Russell Williams: Well, I put a, um, zip tie around her neck and said, uh, that I would pull it if I didn’t like what she was doing.

Detective: Okay. So, she did what you told her to do?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Any issues there? Any reason to pull it?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: So, do you remember if you ejaculated at that point? Or at any point.

Russell Williams: Uh, not at that point but later on.

Detective: Okay, so the oral sex finishes. Then what happens next?

Russell Williams: [deeply inhales] Well, I continued, um, to rape her and I had her put on some of her underwear. Took some pictures. Lots of pictures. And then uh, got her dressed. Walked back to the truck.

Detective: Okay, at what point did you decide that she was going to leave with you?

Russell Williams:  I’m not sure. That wasn’t uh, necessarily always the plan but at some point uh, I was there for [sigh] be 3, 3 hours, 3 and a bit.

Detective: Okay, um, do you remember the conversation about leaving? Was there any? Did she say anything about that or what was she saying…?

Russell Williams: Well.

Detective: …to you?

Russell Williams: She was um, certainly cooperative.

Detective: Okay, and cooperative can mean a number of different things. Was she excited about leaving with you, and I don’t want to be sarcastic but um…

Russell Williams: No, no. She just didn’t put up too much of a fuss.

Detective: Did she try and negotiate with you at all or…

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: What did she say?

[edited]

Russell Williams: Well, I told her that I would let her go later on.

Detective: Okay, so when you take her out of your house is she is still bound or…

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: How, how is that done?

Russell Williams: Just, uh, hands behind her back.

Detective: Okay, what about her feet? Anything there?

Russell Williams: No, she was walking freely.

Detective: Okay, barefoot or…

Russell Williams: No, no. She had those brown suede shoes on that had been reported.

Detective: Okay, so where does she sit in your truck when you get to your truck?

Russell Williams: Front seat, passenger side.

Detective: Okay and where do you go?

Russell Williams: Straight to Tweed.

Detective: Straight to your house in Tweed or straight…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …to just the town.

Russell Williams: Straight to the house.

Detective: No stops anywhere?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay, what time, do you remember what time you arrive there?

Russell Williams: I don’t exactly but I’d say between four thirty and five thirty.

Detective: Okay, alright. And you where, uh, when you were first there before she came home, do you remember did anybody come to the door at all when you were in the house?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Now I think somebody had come home, somebody had come to the house just before she did ‘cause I thought it was her but then they left. I was outside at the time.

Detective: Did you see who that person was or what kind of vehicle they were…

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: …in or anything.

Russell Williams: No, saw the lights and I seen it was her and then all of a sudden they left so I don’t know what happened.

Detective: Okay, um, where were you when that first vehicle pulled up?

Russell Williams: In the back, backyard.

Detective: Okay, so you didn’t have a view of the vehicle, you could just tell that there was a vehicle there.

Russell Williams: I just saw lights.

Detective: …is that fair?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, so you get home about four thirty, five, you said.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, and then what happens?

Russell Williams: Uh, well, she, uh, she had to go to the bathroom and uh, had a quick shower. Washed her and then we went into my bedroom and went to sleep a little bit. She was tied up.

Detective: How was she tied up at that point?

Russell Williams: Just hands behind her back. I had put um, tape over her eyes from the beginning so that’s what she had.

Detective: Okay, when they find her is that tape going to be there or is it ever removed?

Russell Williams: No, I removed it.

Detective: Okay, what kind of tape?

Russell Williams: Duct tape.

Detective: Alright, the duct tape that you used, where is uh, where’s that roll?

Russell Williams: Uh, it’s all done. It, uh, I used it to, I used the rest of it to, uh, bind her, bind her body.

Detective: So, by all gone is it, is it, with the body now?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, so you said who went to sleep when you came home, you had a, or she had a shower?

Russell Williams: Well, we both went in. I washed her off after she’d been to the bathroom. We both went to sleep but she was tied up and I tied the rope, you know, so I could fall asleep a little bit and she could move without waking me up.

Detective: I’m trying to picture how that would be. So, the rope’s tied to what on her?

Russell Williams: It’s tied in her hands.

Detective: Behind…

Russell Williams: Behind her back.

Detective: Okay and…

Russell Williams: And then the rope just wrapped around me a couple times so there was no slack.

Detective: Okay, do you remember how long you slept for?

Russell Williams: Not long, maybe a couple hours.

Detective: Do you know if she slept?

Russell Williams: I don’t know.

Detective: Okay, so you wake up and…

Russell Williams: It wasn’t, I mean, we were up and down, up and down, so it wasn’t 2 hours straight. It was 2 hours in bed but there wasn’t much sleep. Just lying there probably.

Detective: So, you waited or you get up from that and what happens.

Russell Williams: [deeply inhales] Um, she had a seizure actually. She felt it coming on and um, cause she’d had some before, lasted, uh, well quite a while. Got her dressed into the, uh, family room and anyway she um, she recovered. She got, uh, you know, was obviously stress but uh, you know, probably, probably went on for about 15 minutes, part of it.

Detective: So…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: How do you know she had them before?

Russell Williams: She told me. [sighs]

Detective: Did she tell you why she gets them?

Russell Williams: Well, she suggested it was stress, yeah, so she felt herself…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: … you know, start to tense up and said she thought she was going to have a seizure. Yeah, so, she was [tapping] she was, it’s you know, convulsions is what she was having.

Detective: Okay so she’s recovered from that.

Russell Williams: Yep, she um, like I stayed with her and talked her through it and made sure she didn’t bite her tongue.

Detective: Okay and then what happened?

Russell Williams: [inhales deeply]  Oh, then we had a little lie down right there because she was obviously exhausted. Put a cover over her and went to sleep, probably for an hour or so.

[silence]

Russell Williams: [sigh] and I told her um, earlier that before I let her go I wanted to take some pictures of her in her underwear and uh, have sex with her so after she’d had uh, a rest for an hour or so I had her uh, put on a number of different outfits she had. [deeply inhales]

Detective: I’m sorry.

Russell Williams: Put on a, a number of, you know, pairs of panties, bras, that she had that I’d taken.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: From the house. So, she put those on and I took pictures.

Detective: Okay, are you in any of these pictures?

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: Mm. What kind of images, what kind of images are you in?

Russell Williams: [sigh] Um, well, I’m with her, there’s on the hard drives. You’ll see, there’s video as well so there was a video of the, um, you know, almost 4 hours, I guess.

Detective: Of what?

Russell Williams: Well, of, uh, initially at her place of uh, me raping her [sign] and then, uh, yeah, I was running the video and then taking still pictures, so the video pretty much covers everything.

Detective: Did you use video at other places?

Russell Williams: Uh, at, uh, Marie-France’s as well.

Detective: And uh, is that video on the hard drives?

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: Same type of, uh, activity?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Well, I didn’t have her put on any stuff.

Detective: Okay, so Jessica poses for these pictures and there’s videos and um, and then what happens?

Russell Williams: Then um, I got her dressed. She thought she was leaving. Had a bite to eat, fruit, and then as we were walking out, uh, I struck her on the back of the head.

Detective: Okay, when did you decide to do that?

Russell Williams: Well, I was, uh, pretty sure that I wasn’t going to let her leave but um, you know the idea of striking her on the head was developed in the afternoon.

Detective: And what was the strike supposed to accomplish, in your mind? What was the intent of doing that?

Russell Williams: Well, I thought I would be able to knock her out and then I was, I was going to strangle her.

Detective: Okay, so when you actually do strike her, what, what’s the result?

Russell Williams: Her skull gave way a little bit, felt like. And there was a lot of blood so I think that’s what happened, she was immediately unconscious. And then I, um, strangled her.

Detective: How did you strangle her?

Russell Williams: Uh, the same rope. Just put it around her neck…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: …while she was unconscious.

Detective: And what happened to the zip tie that was around her neck earlier?

Russell Williams: I took it off, uh, around then I guess.

Detective: Did you take it off before you put the rope around her neck or, or after or do you remember?

Russell Williams: [inhales deeply] After she was dead. [sigh]

Detective: Oh, okay, so the zip tie was around her neck while you used the rope?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, did you leave the rope around her neck?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay, and how did you know she was dead?

Russell Williams: [deeply inhales] She, um, well her body stopped moving.

Detective: Okay, so what did you do after that?

Russell Williams: I, uh, I bound her up into a, it was fetal position. And uh, cleaned up the floor.

Detective: Now, when you say you bound her up, is that you referring to the duct tape that you talked about earlier?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, so then what did you do?

Russell Williams: I um, put her in the garage. It was very cold, and then I went in to the Base.

Detective: Okay, why did you go to the Base?

Russell Williams: Pardon me?

Detective: Why did you go to the Base?

Russell Williams: Because I was flying early the next morning.

Detective: Okay, so what time did you leave to go to the Base?

Russell Williams: When I told you, about between 9 or 10 or so.

Detective: On Friday night?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, so you fly and…

Russell Williams: [sigh] Then I drove home to Ottawa.

Detective: So which night would you…

Russell Williams: Saturday night.

Detective: So, you land uh, and uh, what time are you landing?

Russell Williams: Six, six thirty.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Saturday night.

Detective: Did you go by the house in Tweed on your way no Ottawa or?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Um, so you drove straight home to Ottawa. What time did you get there at, do you remember?

Russell Williams: Sometime before midnight and I can’t quite remember but uh, I think I went in the office first, did some work, so I think I got home to Ottawa, uh, just before midnight. Something like that, I think. I’m not sure. I, I, slept for a little bit in, at the Tim Hortons in Brockville so it might be later. I honestly can’t remember when I got to Ottawa but…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Yeah, midnight – ish Saturday.

Detective: Mm-hm.

[silence]

Detective: So, you get home here in Ottawa. What do you do? Do you go to bed or…?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: … stay up? So, then what do you do the next day?

Russell Williams: Well, my wife and I did some stuff. I can’t remember what, uh, what was going on that day. You know, putting together the new house and I headed back to Tweed that night.

Detective: Mm-hm.

Russell Williams: Is that right? Sorry. Uh, no. I didn’t. I had, uh, I had Monday off. That’s right. I had Monday off and then I was visiting, uh, one of the units in Ottawa on Tuesday so I didn’t head back to Tweed until Tuesday night.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: [clears throat]

Detective: So you get back to Tweed and what happens next?

Russell Williams: [deeply inhales] I, uh, I took Jessica’s body to that spot.

Detective: Okay, that happened Tuesday night, just this past Tuesday, obviously.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, do you remember what time it was?

Russell Williams: It was pretty late. It was, um, midnight – ish I’d say. Between midnight and one on uh, Wednesday morning.

Detective: Okay, um, what made you decide to measure that distance, that point, 7 kilometers?

Russell Williams: That’s just the way I am. Numbers, I have to know the numbers.

Detective: Okay, and um, how did you leave her?

Russell Williams: I just left her tucked behind a, uh, a fairly large rock.

Detective: Is that duct tape still on her?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Um, and what else is on her?

Russell Williams: Couple towels wrapped around her head and uh, the top and pants she was wearing. Jeans.

Detective: Okay. Did you ever go back there?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Alright. Um, what other type of cleaning things like that, did you do anything else to kind of cover your tracks that you can think of?

Russell Williams: I vacuumed the house and I, uh, wiped the, the floor, washed the floor.

Detective: Okay, what about your truck, do you do anything with that?

Russell Williams: Just, uh, washed it uh, ‘cause it was a mess and vacuum.

Detective: Okay, um, so Marie-France, when did, uh, when did it first occur to you to go to her house?

Russell Williams: Uh, [sigh] well, probably October, October, November, not quite sure but somewhere in that time period.

Detective: And do you remember why you, that you thought to, um, do that?

Russell Williams: Uh, well, you know, she had said she lived alone on the one time I met her.

Detective: Mm-hm.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

[silence]

Russell Williams: Yeah. [deeply inhales]

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: [sighs]

Detective: Um, I’m just trying to understand like, why her versus you know, the dozens of other women you’ve probably come across.

Russell Williams: I don’t know, you know, I, you know, I went out there when she wasn’t home just to see where she lived and…

Detective: When did you do that?

Russell Williams: Couple nights before.

Detective: And how did you know her address?

Russell Williams: Well, I just headed down the road from the Base here.

Detective: Okay, so when you go out there a couple nights before, do you remember what night that was when you were there the first time?

Russell Williams: I don’t, uh, but I, it’s, it was within 2 or 3 nights, I think.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Oh well, no more than 4 anyway. Something like that.

Detective: And did you actually go into her house on that occasion or did you just uh…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay so what happened that night? How did you, how did you get into her house?

Russell Williams: This window on the side of the basement, side window.

Detective: Okay, and just to back us up a bit, uh, how did you get to her house that, that first night you went there?

Russell Williams: I drove.

Detective: What did you drive?

Russell Williams: [sigh] Uh, I think I drove my truck.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Pathfinder.

Detective: And do you remember where you parked it?

Russell Williams: Yeah, I parked at, um, the, the division in the residential areas there. I parked it on the other side, yeah six, seven hundred metres away.

Detective: Okay, so not on her street?

Russell Williams: On a different street. Do you remember what street you parked on? No, but it’s actually might be the same street but there’s…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: … an interruption in the street where there’s a construction zone so there’s a pathway inbetween so uh, I think it’s probably the same street.

Detective: Okay, so you, uh, you go to her house and when you went there that night did you know she was away?

Russell Williams:  Uh, I’m not sure if I knew entirely but I, I think I thought she was away.

Detective: Okay, is that based on her schedule or, or how it, how would you know that?

Russell Williams: Uh, well yeah, ‘cause I fly with the squadron, I have access to the schedule and…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: …it’s, it’s slightly different schedule she has but that’s probably how I knew.

Detective: You don’t know for sure?

Russell Williams:  I think that’s probably how I knew.

Detective: Okay, so you go to her house…

Russell Williams:  Mm-hm.

Detective: …and what do you do that night, the first night?

Russell Williams: Well, I looked around and um, I made sure that she was living there alone.

Detective: … And I’m sorry did, did you say, I can’t remember if you said how, how did you get in?

Russell Williams: Same, same way through the bottom side basement window.

Detective: Side basement window. Do you remember what kind of window it is, like what made it, uh…

Russell Williams: Well, I just noticed that it was well, I noticed with the flashlight, I could see that it was not locked. It had been open slightly so I removed the screen, slid it open, went in.

Detective: Okay, so you go in and uh, you’re in her house figuring out she lives alone and, and, uh, do you do anything that night?

Russell Williams: Yeah, I was playing with her, uh, underwear.

Detective: What do you mean playing with her underwear?

Russell Williams: Well, wearing it.

Detective: Okay, is there anything else?

Russell Williams: Well, I didn’t, I didn’t touch her stuff.

Detective: What do you mean you didn’t touch her stuff? I mean, you touched…

Russell Williams: [deeply inhales]

Detective: …her underwear [inaudible]

Russell Williams: Well, yeah.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: But nothing else.

Detective: Okay, did you take any of the underwear with you that night?

Russell Williams: Yeah, a few pieces.

Detective: And where did you find the underwear when you went in?

Russell Williams: In her drawer.

Detective: Was it clean, was it used or?

Russell Williams: Clean.

Detective: Yeah, um, anything else you can remember doing that evening that you..,?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Alright, so, um, after that first visit did you return again before meeting up with her?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay, so which day did you go to her house when she was there?

Russell Williams: Well the night before I went to Ottawa so, I think that was Monday night.

Detective: Alright, um, so let’s walk through that, uh, what time do you think you got there?

Russell Williams: About eleven or so, probably ten thirty, eleven.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Yeah, so she was on the phone in her room. I could hear that, uh, from the back yard. I got in through the uh, side window.

Detective: The same basement window?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: How could you hear her from the backyard, what was uh…

Russell Williams: I could see her on the phone from beside, uh, beside the house. I could hear her through the walls that she was on the phone.

Detective: Okay, any idea who she was talking to or what she was talking about?

Russell Williams: No, I couldn’t hear that well.

Detective: Okay, so you go in through the basement window and what are you wearing when this is happening?

Russell Williams: Um, a sweatshirt and Dockers, I guess and the, um, 2 pieces on my head.

Detective: Okay and where are those 2 pieces now, the pieces that you wore on the head?

Russell Williams: Uh, they’re probably in my bag in, um, my luggage bag, and it’s in the bedroom.

Detective: What does your luggage bag look like?

Russell Williams: It’s, um, blue duffle bag type thing. It’s right beside the bed.

Detective: Okay. There the only blue duffle bag in your bedroom?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Um, and these pieces, what do they look like again?

Russell Williams: It’s a blue headband.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Standard blue, you know, winter head band and uh, black skull cap type thing.

Detective: Okay, any insignias or anything on them?

Russell Williams: Yeah, there are but I don’t know what they are.

Detective: Do you know what…

Russell Williams: The blue headband has something, uh, you know, stitched. Uh, uh, name of some sort stitched on it and the, uh, skull cap has some sort of emblem on it. White emblem on the black. I don’t know what it is.

Detective: Are they like, sports emblems or company emblems or…

Russell Williams: Uh, it’s the manufacturer’s…

Detective: Okay, anything else in that blue, uh, duffle bag?

Russell Williams: I think so.

Detective: Is it full of things other than…

Russell Williams: Just, just my clothes.

Detective: Okay, um, you go in, uh, do you remember what you had on your feet?

Russell Williams: In the house there?

Detective: When you went to Marie-France’s house.

Russell Williams: No, I don’t. Probably running shoes. There wasn’t snow on the ground.

Detective: Okay, so you go in and you’re in the basement and uh, whereabouts in the basement are you?

Russell Williams: Um, by the furnace.

Detective: Okay, and what are you doing? What, what, uh, what’s your, sort of, plan at that point?

Russell Williams: I was waiting for her to go to bed.

Detective: Okay, and how long did that take?

Russell Williams: Well, she didn’t.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: So then she came down looking for the cat.

Detective: Alright, and uh, what happens next?

Russell Williams: Well, as I described, I subdued her, hit her with the flashlight, got, essentially wrestled her to the ground, and tied her up.

Detective: Okay, and what did you use to tie her up?

Russell Williams: Same rope. Green rope. It’s in Tweed.

Detective: It is just green or like, uh, how long is this piece of rope?

Russell Williams: Mm… It’s probably, um, 20 feet. It’s a boat, boat rope. It’s got some red specs in it, I think.

Detective: Okay, is there lots of ropes in Tweed or is this probably the only rope.

Russell Williams: No, this, uh, there are 2, 2 lengths.

Detective: 2 lengths of the same green rope?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: And were they both used?

Russell Williams: Uh, well, I, I only ever had one with me so I don’t know if I used the same piece both times or not but only 2 lengths of rope.

Detective: Okay, so you tie her, tie her up. How did you tie her up after you subdue her?

Russell Williams: Hands behind her back.

Detective: Okay, and what is she wearing at that point?

Russell Williams: She wasn’t wearing anything to start with.

Detective: So, when she came down to the basement she had no clothes on?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm, she had some sort of shawl over her shoulder…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: …which she immediately dropped when she saw me.

Detective: Did she say anything when she saw you?

Russell Williams: She did, she called out “you bastard”.

Detective: Okay, and then what happened?

Russell Williams: Then I subdued her, as I described.

Detective: By hitting her with that red flashlight?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Oh, they were more glancing, glancing blows. Cut her skin but weren’t doing much else.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: She fell over and then I subdued her when she tripped.

Detective: Okay, how did you tie her at that point. Like, I know you used the rope but what were, what did you tie her up, up, like?

Russell Williams: Just told her to put her, well, I pulled her hand behind her back and just tied her wrists together.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: [sigh]

Detective: Then, then what happened after that?

Russell Williams: Then I took her upstairs.

Detective: Did she go upstairs under her own power or did you carry her?

Russell Williams: No, she passed out, um, on the stairs and then I carried her up.

Detective: Why do you think she passed out?

Russell Williams: I expect, uh, from the hits to her head.

Detective: So, you carried her up to where?

Russell Williams: To her bedroom, put her on the bed.

Detective: Okay, and then what happened?

Russell Williams: Uh, well as I described I think, I, uh, pushed her on the bed. I raped her over a period of time.

Detective: Okay. In the interest of being specific, what sex acts took place?

Russell Williams: Just vaginal.

Detective: Your penis in her vagina?

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: Any condom used?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Did you ejaculate?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Did you ejaculate at any point with her?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay. Um, just before I forget, I think I asked you, don’t mean to bounce around here, Russ, with Jessica, I asked you about ejaculation. You said you didn’t at that point. When did you ejaculate with Jessica?

Russell Williams: Um, the second time or third time that I had her, um, perform oral sex.

Detective: And was that at her residence or yours?

Russell Williams: Hers.

Detective: Okay. Any other times you ejaculated with her?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay. Um, when you ejaculated with Jessica did you use anything to clean up or?

Russell Williams. No.

Detective: What happened to the ejaculate?

Russell Williams: She swallowed it.

Detective: Um, okay, so getting back to Marie-France, it’s just straight vaginal sex, no condom, no ejaculation. Is that right?

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: Okay, um, how long does that go for, like how long were you engaged in that activity?

Russell Williams: [sigh] uh, [sigh] couple, well, hour and a half, two hours, I guess.

Detective: Okay and then what happens next?

Russell Williams: Well, as I described I suffocated her using, um, duct tape.

Detective: Why did you decide to do that?

Russell Williams: Well, again, because of the pictures kind of, as I described to you it would’ve, um, it was going to be a pretty straight line back to Tweed.

Detective: Okay, but why, why, why did you decide to use that method versus something else?

Russell Williams: Just, I had, uh, thought about strangling her earlier. It’s on the video.

Detective: What is?

Russell Williams: My, uh, well, it was a short-lived attempt because she struggled quite a bit and I decided that I needed to suffocate her.

Detective: So, uh, it was a short lived attempt to strangle her and what’s on the video? The suffocation or the strangling?

Russell Williams: Well, just me putting my hand around her throat and then her uh, responding, you know, no surprise, very aggressively.

Detective: Okay. Any videos of the, uh, suffocation part or pictures of that?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Um, now, you, you mentioned that you brought the rope with you. Where did the duct tape come from?

Russell Williams: I brought it.

Detective: Okay, and what did you do with it afterwards?

Russell Williams: [deeply inhales] I think it uh [sigh] that it stayed in Tweed.

Detective: What color of duct tape are we talking about? I know it comes in a variety of colors but…

Russell Williams: Grey.

Detective: Grey. Um, so before, uh, the suffocation, uh, obviously, how, how long do you think you were with her from the point, well, how long do you think you were in that house from the point you went in that window to the point you left?

Russell Williams: Probably, um, 4 hours.

Detective: Okay, so correct me if I’m wrong, did you say you would’ve gotten there at 11 or around 11?

Russell Williams: I think that’s right.

Detective: Okay so like, you left around 3 in the morning?

Russell Williams: Well, I was in the basement for quite a while before she came down, like she wasn’t going to bed so I was probably in the basement for 30, 40 minutes.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: So, by the time she saw me it was probably closer to midnight…

Detective: Alright, um…

Russell Williams: …but I didn’t have a watch on so I’m not sure.

Detective: …any gloves?

Russell Williams: [sigh] I don’t think so.

Detective: Did you wear gloves with Jessica?

Russell Williams: Uh, only to get in the house. It was a very cold night.

Detective: Well, what about the 2 women in, uh, in Tweed?

Russell Williams: No gloves.

Detective: Okay, so while you’re with Marie-France, what kind of conversations are taking place, you anything in she said to stick out in your mind?

Russell Williams: No, no. I taped her mouth. There’s no conversation.

Detective: Okay, when did you tape her mouth?

Russell Williams: [sigh] Soon as I got her up to the bedroom.

Detective: Why did you decide to do that?

Russell Williams: Because she was, uh, you know, quite aggressive.

Detective: In what way?

Russell Williams: I was confident she was, uh, would have screamed given the chance…

Detective: What way was…

Russell Williams: … because she did initially.

Detective: Did she?

Russell Williams: In the basement.

Detective:  So, in what way was she aggressive?

Russell Williams: Oh, just in, you know, when she discovered me she was very vocal, screamed quite a bit until I subdued her so I expected she would scream again given the chance.

Detective: Okay, do you remember how you left her residence?

Russell Williams: Back door, patio door.

Detective: Okay, did you take anything with you that night?

Russell Williams: Some of her underwear.

Detective: Anything else?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Alright, um, did you do anything else to try and uh, cover your tracks with Marie-France?

Russell Williams: [deeply inhale] um, well, I had turned off my Blackberry before I left Trenton. Other than that, no.

Detective: Do you remember trying to destroy any kind of evidence there the, or anything you thought may have uh, produced evidence or anything?

Russell Williams: Oh, I took her sheets off the bed and ran them through the laundry.

Detective: Like the laundry, where at?

Russell Williams: In her house.

Detective: Okay, did you run them completely through? Did you wait for it to finish or…?

Russell Williams: No, I just put them in and put a whole bunch of bleach in and let it go.

Detective: Okay, so the night you went to her house and got there at 11, you came from where, like you said, you left Trenton.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: You turned off your Blackberry. You did, you talking about the Base or you talking about, uh, where did you leave to go to her house?

Russell Williams: Well, no, I just turned off my Blackberry before I left the Trenton area. [sigh] Um, I would’ve left from the Base after work.

Detective: Alright, when did you turn your, when did you, uh, what time do you think you turned your Blackberry off?

Russell Williams: Well, it’s only a half hour drive to Brighton so you know, probably in the nine, nine thirty range.

Detective: Do you remember what, uh, what time you would’ve turned it back on?

Russell Williams: When I was back on the 401 heading to Ottawa the next morning.

Detective: What time would that have been?

Russell Williams: So, six, plus or minus 30 minutes.

Detective: Okay, so you leave her house three-ish.

Russell Williams: No, I, I think it was later that, that so 4 hours obviously it was… I think, uh, yeah, I think I went in about 11, was in the basement for quite a while. Probably left her house closer to four, four thirty, something like that.

Detective: Okay, and where do you go?

Russell Williams: Uh, I drove to Ottawa.

Detective: Straight to Ottawa?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Did you go by your house in Tweed or anything or do you just go straight home?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Do you remember what route you took?

Russell Williams: Uh, yeah. 401, uh, from her place. Uh, I think I went straight north on, uh, whatever the road is that goes straight through Brighton up to the 401, hit the 401 and headed East.

Detective: Okay, and so you’re going to what’s the meeting, you’re having that day in Ottawa. Remind me.

Russell Williams: It’s a meeting on, uh, the C17 acquisition project.

Detective: Okay, and who ran that meeting?

Russell Williams: [deeply inhales] The project manager, Miss Sue Hale.

Detective: Okay, is that the only meeting around that time period you would’ve went to on that issue with Sue Hale?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: There wasn’t like a weekly meeting or anything like that?

Russell Williams: No, this is sort of a quarterly.

Detective: Alright. Um, so, the night you went, the night this happened, uh, where did you park, uh, that night?

Russell Williams: As I said, across the gravel little roadway probably and it’s probably the same road…

Detective: Okay, same, uh, location to the first night?

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: Alright. Same, same vehicle?

Russell Williams: Yeah, truck.

Detective: Yeah, alright, um, okay. Let’s talk about uh, the, oh, seeing how’s, we’re going backwards in time here, why don’t we talk about the second incident in Tweed. Um, with, uh, Laurie Massicotte. The that that’s uh, at 76 Cozy Cove. How did you, uh, decide on her?

Russell Williams: I knew she lived alone. That’s it.

Detective: And how did you know that?

Russell Williams: Well, she lives 3 doors down and uh, didn’t know her but I knew she is pretty alone. She had boyfriend and hadn’t seemed to be, hadn’t been around so [sigh] you know, um, looked in the window and she was alone.

Detective: So, she, she had a boyfriend but he wasn’t…

Russell Williams: He wasn’t there.

Detective: …too frequently, okay.

Russell Williams: Well, he wasn’t, uh, she told me that they were fighting so that’s why he hadn’t been there.

Detective: Okay, so um, did you look in her house before the night that this, this incident happened or when did you do that?

Russell Williams: Yeah, I’d been in, uh, within the week, probably a couple nights earlier.

Detective: What did you do that night?

Russell Williams: I, um, I looked around to see if there were any permanent signs of her boyfriend, I guess. Took, uh, 1 or 2 pieces of her underwear, that’s all.

Detective: Okay, so the night you go there…

Russell Williams: [sigh]

Detective: Uh, when the incident happens, uh, do you remember what time it was?

Russell Williams: It was pretty late. Um, I probably got into the house around midnight. She was asleep on the couch though. I didn’t know that, but I knew she was in there.

Detective: And how did you get in? Sorry.

Russell Williams: Uh, window in the back of the house. There’s a little sunroom.

Detective: Was it just something you had to slid or, or how did you..?

Russell Williams: I had to remove the screen and uh, and slide it up.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: [sigh] So I got into the house and uh, she was asleep in front of the TV.

Detective: Wearing anything on your face that night?

Russell Williams: Yeah, same things.

Detective: Okay, the headband and the uh, the cap.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, um, what kind of clothes did you have on?

Russell Williams: Just dark sweatshirt or pants.

Detective: Alright, so she’s asleep on the couch. You’re in there and then what happens?

Russell Williams: [laugh] We have been through this, eh.

Detective: I know.

Russell Williams: I struck her with the, uh, flashlight thinking it would knock her out. It didn’t. We struggled. I subdued her, took some pictures, left. Was probably in the house about two, two and a half hours.

Detective: That’s a pretty short description for two and a half hours.

Russell Williams: Well, we talked. I, uh, I told her I wasn’t going to hurt her. I, uh, told her that there were other guys in the house robbing her. My job was just to control her. [sigh]

Detective: What did she say to that?

Russell Williams: She was scared and was worried she was going to be seriously hurt.

Detective: Did she say that or did you…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: … just assume that?

Russell Williams: No, no. She said that she was, she was worried she was going to be killed. I said I’m not going to kill you.

Detective: What did you do with, uh, you said you took pictures of her, um, clothed, unclothed?

Russell Williams: Uh, both. Clothed initially and then unclothed.

Detective: Okay, are you in any of those pictures?

Russell Williams: Don’t think so.

Detective: You just took them of her. What kind of camera are you using by the way? It’s a….

Russell Williams: It’s a digital, uh, Sony.

Detective: Do you just have the one camera?

Russell Williams: Yeah, and the video camera.

Detective: Oh, so they’re 2 separate…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …cause some cameras take video, right?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Um, and where is the camera and the, and the video camera?

Russell Williams: It’s in Tweed.

Detective: Is it the only camera and video camera in that house?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, alright, um, so you take pictures of her and how do you end up leaving? Do you, uh…

Russell Williams: Oh, I just told her to, um, I don’t know, count or wait for, uh, a number of minutes before, uh, before she called the police.

Detective: Okay, and did you leave immediately, or did you stay there for a while…

Russell Williams: Well, uh…

Detective: …see what she was going to do or?

Russell Williams: I left.

Detective: Um, and where do you go?

Russell Williams: Home.

Detective: Straight home?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, did you, did you wait to see if police showed up or anything or…

Russell Williams: No, no, it’s uh, you know… [deeply inhales]

Detective: So what did you do when you got home?

Russell Williams: … couple hundred feet. Uh, I went to sleep.

Detective: Okay, and what did you do the next day?

Russell Williams: Went to work, normal time.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Couple hours later.

Detective: Alright, um, do you remember how, uh, her clothing was removed?

Russell Williams: [sigh] uh, well, cause her hands were tied behind her back I think I cut off her top and then pulled off her bottom.

Detective: What did you use to cut her top?

Russell Williams: Um, I can’t remember if it was a knife or like a folding Exacto knife or Leatherman or one of the two.

Detective: Are these items that are in your house in Tweed?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, is there every any other time you used a, a, a knife to cut off clothing or anything else? Do you remember?

Russell Williams: Uh, I cut off Jessica’s top with a knife ‘cause her hands were tied behind her back. That’s all.

Detective: Okay, where’s that knife, which knife did…

Russell Williams: Same.

Detective: …you use?

Russell Williams: That was the Leatherman.

Detective: That was the Leatherman.

Russell Williams: Tweed.

Detective: Okay, is it the only Leatherman in, in Tweed?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, um, so on the 16th of September, uh, [edited] when you went that night, was that the first time you’d been in her house?

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: Okay, and why her?

Russell Williams: Just ‘cause I’d seen her and she was cute. That’s it.

Detective: Okay, so there was no, um, you didn’t go into her house before that?

Russel Williams: [deeply inhale]

Detective: …that night.

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Alright, um, so you go in and how did you get into her house?

Russell Williams: Side window, the, uh, was not locked. Cut the screen, slid the window, crawled in.

Detective: Okay, and uh, what are you wearing?

Russell Williams: Same. Sweatshirt, dark pants.

Detective: And the same hat and…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, uh, and where do you find, uh, [edited]?

Russell Williams: In bed, asleep.

Detective: Okay, and what do you do?

Russell Williams: [Deeply inhales] Stood over her for a while and then I, uh, hit her on the left side of her head, just with my hand. Just woke her up. We struggled then I just lay on her. And uh, very much like I described a little but ago. Took off her, pulled her top down and took off her pants. Took some pictures and left.

Detective: Do you remember her saying anything to you?

Russell Williams: Yes.

Detective: What does she say to you?

Russell Williams: Well, all kinds of things. Um, you know, she had a, a young baby just uh, next door. The other room, 8 months or so. So obviously concerned about the baby. Concerned for herself. I assured her I was not going to hurt her. Physically, anyway. [deeply inhale]

Detective: Okay, um, any underwear taken from [edited]

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Or Laurie?

Russell Williams: Yeah, both.

Detective: And where would they be located?

Russell Williams: In Tweed.

Detective: And why are they in Tweed as opposed to uh, um, Marie-France and Jessica’s underwear.

Russell Williams: I don’t know.

Detective: Do you remember how much of their underwear you took?

Russell Williams: Um [sigh] not very much from Laurie. [edited]

Detective: Okay, do they know that you took their underwear?

Russell Williams: I don’t know.

Detective: You didn’t discuss it with them or anything. Um, so where in Tweed would their underwear be?

Russell Williams: [sigh] Um, in the, uh, laundry room area…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: …just between the house and the garage.

Detective: Right.

Russell Williams: [sigh]

Detective: Where in the laundry room area would they be kept?

Russell Williams: There’s a cupboard, uh, up top. They’re in a duffle bag.

Detective: What does the duffle bag look like?

Russell Williams: It’s a green Army duffle bag.

Detective: Okay, are they all in the same duffle bag? Is there anything else in the duffle bag?

Russell Williams: [sigh] just underwear.

Detective: Okay, um, when these, when these pictures uh, are looked at, um, you talked about being in Marie-France’s underwear on the first night, you went in. Did you take photographs of that?

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: What about anybody else’s underwear?

Russell Williams: Yeah, photos.

Detective: Of you in their underwear?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: And where were those photos taken?

Russell Williams: Um, well, sometimes in as in, in Marie-France’s case, in her house [sigh]. The others in my house.

Detective: In Tweed.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: So, was this the matter, you take and later go back and, and then at some point looking around and take pictures…What about Jessica’s underwear?

Russell Williams: Uh, she’s only her, really.

Detective: So, you don’t have pictures of you in her underwear?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay, alright. Um, okay, well, I guess, uh, I just have a couple of questions for you, I mean, I’m sure there’s going to be more questions but I guess what’s on my mind right now, uh, Russ, is um, what made you decide to tell me this tonight?

Russell Williams: Mostly to make my wife’s life easier.

Detective: Okay. Is what you told me tonight the truth?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, how do you feel about what you’ve done? Like what, uh…

[silence]

Russell Williams: Disappointed.

Detective: Okay. Let me ask you this. If, um, if this didn’t come to the point it’s at right now, if for whatever reason you didn’t end up on our, on our radar so to speak, uh, do you think it would’ve happened again?

Russell Williams: I was hoping not but I can’t answer that question but [edited]

Detective: Okay, um, not too much here, Russ. Just a few details that I wanted to cover off and specifically dealing with Marie-France. Um, in the basement of her house, um, there’s a hole in the, uh, drywall. Do you recall how that happened?

Russell Williams: Whereabouts?

Detective: Uh, I don’t know specifically but it’s downstairs.

Russell Williams: I don’t remember that, no.

Detective: Okay, do you remember doing anything with her in the basement, uh, where you may have used some clothing or something to, uh, secure her?

Russell Williams: Yeah, I tied her up against one of the, uh, poles in the basement initially and I went outside and put the screen back on and secured the window.

Detective: Okay, while she was tied to the pole.

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: And what was your thinking behind doing that at that point?

Russell Williams: Just to cover up how I’d come in.

Detective: Okay, um, now by the time she’s tied to that pole, is that in the very initial few minutes kind of thing, of the confrontation or?

Russell Williams: It was shortly after I’d subdued her and tied her up, yes.

Detective: Okay, does she have duct tape on her mouth yet?

Russell Williams: I think probably.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: The pictures will show it.

Detective: Alright, now in the upstairs bathroom, by her bedroom, there’s uh, looks like something’s occurred in there. Do you remember that?

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: What happened there?

Russell Williams: She had passed out on the bed and I had gone to look out the front window to see if anybody was coming and uh, she got up and closed the bedroom door and raced into the bathroom trying to uh, get somebody’s attention but her mouth was taped and her hands were tied.

Detective: Okay. What did you do as a result of that?

Russell Williams: Well, I just got in and subdued her again and got, got her back into the bedroom.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Didn’t do anything, just regained control of her.

Detective: Okay, if I remember correctly there’s a bit, little bit of blood in there. Do you know where that blood would’ve, how that, that would have occurred?

Russell Williams: All the blood was from the initial hits as I was trying to subdue her.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Her skin breaking with the, uh, blows to her head.

Detective: Okay, do you recall blood being in the bathroom?

Russell Williams: No, actually. I didn’t have the light on in there but it doesn’t surprise me.

Detective: Okay. Um, there’s a pair of underwear and some socks on the floor of that bathroom that belong to her. Do you remember how they got there? Remember seeing them?

Russell Williams: I don’t, didn’t see them, no.

Detective: Okay, what do you recall doing to her breasts, it’s pretty clear that there was some, something happened to her breasts. Do you remember what that might have been?

Russell Williams: Mm, no. I, I certainly touched her breasts. I didn’t do anything to hurt them.

Detective: Don’t remember that?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay, alright, um, well Russ…

Russell Williams: Now, when I suffocated her, she was on her, her front so it may have been something there but…

Detective: What do you mean?

Russell Williams: Well, she was lying on the floor in the bedroom as I suffocated her and obviously struggled. It may have been in there that something happened, but I didn’t do anything specific to her breasts.

Detective: Okay. So, what do you suffocate her, that’s when you had the duct tape over her mouth and nose?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: And that’s on the floor?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: And um, then what happens after that?

Russell Williams: Well, she died and I, um, then took the duct tape off her head and put her on the bed and covered her up with the duvet.

Detective: Okay, and what was your thinking behind doing that?

Russell Williams: I don’t know. Nothing really.

Detective: Okay, alright. Um, as you might expect your arrest, uh, certainly, uh, even now one of the uh, Ottawa investigators mentioned to me that um, there’s a number of incidents that uh, that have done unsolved over the years…[cough]

Russell Williams: Can I, I was going to get into that, can I go to the washroom quickly?

Detective: Yeah, I can get somebody to take you to the washroom. Okay.

Dalia Dippolito Case Summary

dippolitoFour months after meeting Mike Dippolito as a client, former escort Dalia Dippolito (Mohammed) married Mike Dippolito in 2009. Within 6 months of their marriage, she hired a man to kill her husband. Fortunately, that man was a police officer. Another man Dalia Dippolito was seeing reported to police that he was afraid something was going to happen to either Mike or Dalia Dippolito and the investigation began. Many phone calls were recorded along with a video of Dalia in the undercover police officer’s car stating that she was “5000 percent sure” that she wanted Mike Dippolito dead and agreed to pay a $1200 deposit.

Dippolito3After the police staged a crime scene at her house and told her that her husband was shot and murdered, she was taken to the police station for what she believed to be an informal interview. When asked if she knew anyone who would want to harm her husband, she told a story about “guys” involved in organized crime being mad that Mike Dippolito was using money he owed them to pay off his probation. After she was finished with this story, the interrogators told her about how they found out through their investigation that Mike Dippolito opened the front door and was taken upstairs where he was shot twice and killed. She argued this, saying he would not have opened the door because they had cameras. The investigators exited the room and pretended to have someone call to see if the house had been burglarized before coming back and telling her that they knew she hired the hitman. The investigators brought in the man she hired in handcuffs before telling her that he is actually a police officer. She denied “doing anything” despite video and audio evidence. The video and transcript of this interrogation can be found here.

dippolito2There have been 3 trials for Dalia Dippolito’s case. In 2011 she was convicted and sentenced to 20 years, but this was overturned on appeal. The second trial in 2016 ended in a hung jury, and in 2017, a third trial ended in a guilty verdict. She tried to get a fourth trial, but her conviction was upheld. Dalia Dippolito claims the police department set her up to impress the reality TV show, “COPS”.

Dalia Dippolito Interrogation Transcript

Dalia Dippolito married Mike Dippolito in 2009. Within 6 months of their marriage, she hired a man to kill her husband. Fortunately, that man was a police officer. Another man Dalia Dippolito was seeing reported to police that he was afraid something was going to happen to either Mike or Dalia Dippolito and the investigation began. Many phone calls were recorded along with a video of Dalia in the undercover police officer’s car stating that she was “5000 percent sure” that she wanted Mike Dippolito dead and agreed to pay a $1200 deposit. After the police staged a crime scene at her house and told her that her husband was shot and murdered, she was taken to the police station for what she believed to be an informal interview. Below is the interrogation where she is confronted by police and they disclose that they were involved the whole time and she is being arrested for solicitation of first degree murder.

Dalia Dippolito Interrogation Transcript

Investigator: Protocol that we have to do is [inaudible] We’ve got to advise you your rights, so you know. Okay? If you don’t understand any of them, just tell me and I’ll stop and repeat the, first of all let me just tell you I’m sorry for your loss.

Dalia Dippolito: I just want to see my husband [inaudible crying]

Investigator: Alright, hun.

Dalia Dippolito: [inaudible crying] see him.

Investigator: No, no. You don’t want to see him.

Dalia Dippolito: I just want to see him.

Investigator: Believe me, you don’t. Could you listen, please? I am required [inaudible] before you make any statement that you have the following constitutional rights. And as I said, it’s protocol.  If you don’t understand them, tell me you don’t understand them and I’ll explain them to you, okay?

Dalia Dippolito: Okay.

Investigator:  You have the right to remain silent and not answer any questions. Do you understand that? You have, you have to answer me.

Dalia Dippolito: [inaudible cry]

Investigator: Just say yes.

Dalia Dippolito: Yes.

Investigator: Any statement you make must be freely and voluntarily given. Do you understand that?

Dalia Dippolito: Yes.

Investigator: If you have a, you have the right to the presence and representation of a lawyer before you make any statements and during any questioning. Do you understand that?

Dalia Dippolito: Yes.

Investigator:  If you can not afford a lawyer you’re entitled to the presence and representation of a court appointed lawyer before you make any statements and during any questions. Do you understand that.

Dalia Dippolito: Yes. Yes.

Investigator: If at anytime during interview you do not wish to answer any questions you [inaudible] to remain silent. Do you understand that? I can make no threats or promises [inaudible] to issue a statement. This must be on your own free will. Do you understand that?

Dalia Dippolito: Yes.

Investigator: Any statement can and will be used against you in the court of law. Do you understand that?

Dalia Dippolito: Yes.

Investigator: I’m going to ask you to sign it, and date it and I will have Detective Anderson as a witness. Okay?

Dalia Dippolito: Okay.

Investigator: Sign on the exes please.

Detective Anderson: I’ll go ahead and date it, Dalia.

Investigator:  Okay, it’s um, got the time? Got the time on you? Okay, this is uh, this is something, because we’re going to video tape, that I need you to sign also. It gives us the right to video tape it. You want to read that?

Dalia Dippolito: I don’t want to be video taped.

Investigator: Well, you are being video taped. That’s all part of it.

Dalia Dippolito: Who’s number is that?

Investigator: That’s your home number.

Dalia Dippolito: Oh.

Investigator: We got that from our reports that have been filed here. Uh, I mean, I’ll tell you what’s going on here. Okay. Listen, is there anybody that you know that you think would want to kill your husband.

Dalia Dippolito: My husband’s on probation.

Investigator: For what?

Dalia Dippolito: He, for stock fraud.

Investigator:  Stock fraud? How long have you been on probation?

Detective Anderson: Probation or parole? Has he spent any time in prison? How much? Do you know?

Dalia Dippolito: Um. Two years in prison and five years on probation. So came out to six years.

Investigator: Oh, oh my god. And what was that for?

Dalia Dippolito: It was for taking money, like, he explained it like, boiler room kind of, where they would take money from people …

Investigator: Oh, I understand.

Dalia Dippolito: …and put it towards things.

Investigator:  Yeah. How long have you guys been married?

Dalia Dippolito: [sigh] Not even a year.

Investigator: This is tragic. Is there anybody that you can think of that would want to do this to him?

Dalia Dippolito: I was telling the officers, we’ve problems already and…

Investigator: What sorts of…

Dalia Dippolito: …he’s been trying to get off probation and it’s been nothing but problems the whole time that he’s been trying to get off. Um, people weren’t happy that he was getting off probation because it’s a lot of money you got to pay back.

Investigator: Well, when you say people, who are you talking about? People was involved in before or…

Dalia Dippolito: A little bit of everything. This was supposed to be something, when he got off probation it was supposed to be between us and he went and he told, you know, friends of his, he told, you know, certain people. And everyone kind of talks and he’s constantly running into a lot of the guys that he was on probation with. Like, a couple days ago we ran into someone and that was, uh, a target. I mean, you know, the guy comes up to us and he’s like with organized crime. It seems like the guys from Boca are moving up here. And we’re constantly running into, you know what I mean, a lot of the guys he knows and things like that.

Investigator: Mm-hm.

Dalia Dippolito: So it’s a lot of money. It was 191,000 dollars…

Detective Anderson: [noise of suprise]

Dalia Dippolito: …he had to pay back. So we were going to go ahead and he had the money to pay off the probation and everything like that and then, I guess somehow, when he went away, some guys didn’t go away, they…

Investigator: When you say go away you mean went to prison?

Dalia Dippolito: Right. They left the country. And then somehow he was dealing with those guys because they thought that he owed them and I don’t know. Something with that that he was taking care of. So, the money he used to get off probation, he never…

Investigator: Ohhh.

Dalia Dippolito: He never, said that he did something else with that, with that money.

Investigator: Yeah, now do you know any of these people, their names, or anything like that, or where they live so we may be able to follow it up? We’re not going to, we’re not going to implicate you.

Dalia Dippolito: The guys that left, I don’t know.

Investigator: You don’t know them?

Dalia Dippolito: I don’t know them.

Investigator: You never met them?

Dalia Dippolito: No. I mean I know the guy we ran into a couple days ago. I know, I know like, certain names. You know what I mean? And I know certain names families. They were all on the news. Like the guys that all just went away…

Investigator: Mm-hm.

Dalia Dippolito: I forget what family.

Investigator: See Ronny and I and the squad, they only work major crimes. We only work murders, or homicides, and, and very serious assaults and kidnappings, and police shootings, things like. We only specialize in that. We don’t, we don’t work in anything else. So I wouldn’t know about the theft money that he may have been involved in. That’s why I’m asking if you know any names, then we can run these guys down and see what they know.

Dalia Dippolito: Well, another, those group of guys, they all went away. But he’s saying one of them, I guess somehow, he has a problem. I don’t know what problem he had, it was before we met. He ran into these guys and the guy thought he owed him something or something happened but they went away. I don’t know if the one guy I’m telling you about, pasquell, if he also went away or if he didn’t. But since this all happened like a month and a half ago they’ve all been arrested again for the same stock fraud stuff again.

Detective Anderson: That first name pasquell or last?

Dalia Dippolito: I don’t know.

Investigator: Is it pasqualli or pasquall?

Dalia Dippolito: Pasquall.

Investigator: Okay. What nationality are you? Spanish?

Dalia Dippolito: My mom is from Peru and my dad is from Egypt.

Investigator: Wow.

Dalia Dippolito: Yeah.

Investigator: There’s uh, I understand, a couple animals at your house too, right?

Dalia Dippolito: So, I guess, I want to tell you everything. The whole [cross talk]

Investigator: Please do. [Cross] Yeah, I do. I want to know.

Dalia Dippolito:  Okay, so that’s what happened with that. So, he didn’t know how to tell everybody what was going on with everything…

Investigator: Mm-hm.

Dalia Dippolito: …and so he pretty much, he told them that like, you know, I have the money and I took it and I got involved, in like a Berny Madoff kind of scheme because he didn’t know how to tell, you know, his mom and everybody what was going on.

Investigator: You’re lucky.

Dalia Dippolito: With what?

Investigator: You’re lucky you went to the gym.

Dalia Dippolito: We were supposed to go to the gym.

Investigator: Oh, both you were supposed to go?

Dalia Dippolito: He didn’t know if he was going. He just had liposuction. He had, like, two love handles removed from here. He had something little.

Investigator: Yeah.

Dalia Dippolito: And um, two weeks ago he had surgery and he had…

Investigator: What kind of surgery?

Dalia Dippolito: [inaudible]. Like, the lipo that he had.

Investigator: Oh, did he used to be real heavy or something?

Dalia Dippolito: No, he used to be then he got lipo done then the last surgeon I guess he left two bulges here. So yesterday he went because he had like, blood build up in his back.

Investigator: Oh.

Dalia Dippolito: So they drained it.

Investigator: Oh okay.

Dalia Dippolito: But he was like “well, depending on how I feel today”, but we go every morning. We haven’t gone since surgery but every morning at 5 am work out [inaudible].

Investigator: [noise of surprise]

Dalia Dippolito: Yeah.

Investigator: That’s a lot of, better than me. I wish I could go, obviously.

Dalia Dippolito: Well, you know, he’s very, um, he used to be a drug addict and…

Investigator: What was his drug of choice?

Dalia Dippolito: Crack.

Investigator: Crack? That’ll do it to you.

Dalia Dippolito: And um, he’s  recovering alcoholic so with him it’s really important to be on schedule, you know what I mean, like have a system and very organized with everything and…

Investigator: Lets, lets get back to, um, his, his death. Um, I don’t know if you know he was shot. He was shot twice. And I want you to know all this.

Detective Anderson: Do you know this?

Investigator: Did they tell you out there?

Dalia Dippolito: Not exactly. I mean, they told me he was shot. When I was at the gym I got a phone call I didn’t hear my phone ring and I called back and they told me just to please come, that something happened at me house.

Investigator: Yeah. Evidently your husband answered the door and they took him back upstairs and in the bedroom…

Dalia Dippolito: He has cameras though, why would he answer the door?

Investigator: I don’t…

Dalia Dippolito: Because doesn’t answer the door for anybody he doesn’t know.

Investigator: I have no…

Dalia Dippolito: And I mean the only person, like his probation officer is like the only, you know what I mean?

Investigator: I have no idea.

Dalia Dippolito: He would not have answered the door. We have cameras, like, at our house.

Investigator: Maybe he knows this person. I didn’t know you had cameras [cross talk] because when we got there, some of your neighbors heard the commotion.

Dalia Dippolito: We have cameras. The front door has cameras…

Investigator: Well, that’s great.

Dalia Dippolito: …the back door has cameras…

Investigator: Then…

Dalia Dippolito: …but they don’t record.

Investigator: They don’t record?

Dalia Dippolito: Nobody knows, but they don’t. We told everybody they record but they don’t record.

Investigator: Oh God.

Dalia Dippolito: Because he didn’t want them to make a hole in the garage for the recorder to be there because of his car.

Investigator: Well, when we got there the doors were wide open. When the officers got there the doors were wide open. They went in and looked, you have a, they said there was two dogs in the house like in a crate or a cage or something like that and um, uh, he was found in the bedroom. Shot twice in the head.

Dalia Dippolito: He wouldn’t open the door unless it’s somebody that he knows because [crosstalk] we don’t open for anybody.

Investigator: You have to understand, I wasn’t there, and neither was he, we have other people there so maybe it was, maybe somebody broke into the house or something, I don’t know. I haven’t been to the scene yet.

Dalia Dippolito: All of our rooms have TVs and we look specifically like to make sure nothing is happening because we’ve had drug incidences and things like that.

Detective Anderson: Was he asleep when you left?

Dalia Dippolito: No. We said, sort of but not really because of his back he was kind of like…

Investigator: Laying there?

Dalia Dippolito: … he was just laying there and he set the alarm and you know? But, I mean….

Investigator: There was no alarm…

Dalia Dippolito: … I said goodbye and you know, I’ll bring you coffee on my way home and you know, normal. Everything normal.

Investigator: There was no alarm, there was no alarm sound going off.

Dalia Dippolito: I put the, our little dogs downstairs and he stayed upstairs with the big dog.

Detective Anderson: How big is the dog?

Dalia Dippolito: It’s an English Bulldog but he doesn’t do anything…

Investigator: Would he bite somebody?

Dalia Dippolito: No. He loves everybody. I mean, he will run off with anybody he sees. The one that’s very aggressive and mean is the white one.

Investigator: It’s probably the smallest one in the house.

Dalia Dippolito: [inaudible] like, four-pound dog.

Investigator: Thinks he weighs 200 lbs right? Um…

Dalia Dippolito: I’m just trying to …

Investigator: Yeah, I’m going, I’m going, what I’m going to do right now…

Dalia Dippolito: There’s a lot that, like, I want to tell you..

Investigator: I’m going to be back but what I’m going to do is call, right now I’m going to go out and get in touch with the officers on the scene and want to see if the house has been burglarized.

Dalia Dippolito: Okay.

Investigator: Alright. Give me one second.

Dalia Dippolito: Okay.

Investigator: You want to wait here?

[Investigator and Detective Anderson exit room]

Investigator: Can you close the door please?

[door shuts]

Investigator: [heard through wall] Can somebody, can somebody call out there and see if there was, if the place was burglarized or anything? Alright.

Dalia Dippolito: [crying] Oh my God.

Investigator: [more conversation through wall, inaudible] Hey, somebody, somebody call out there and see if the place was burglarized or anything? (I’ll take care of it) [inaudible] Will you let me know? You know [inaudible] alarm system [inaudible]bedroom. Let’s just find out if that house was broken into from the front, back, how it went because she says her husband would not let anybody in that house. [inaudible] Okay. Thank you, I appreciate it.

[investigator returns]

Investigator: Go ahead and have it, drink some water. You know that I have advised you of your rights, right?

Dalia Dippolito: Yes, you have.

Investigator: Okay, the game’s over with. Okay? There’s no more games, with you and I. Now, we’re going to get down to serious business. Want to know if you know this guy.

[Investigator opens door]

Investigator: Come here. Bring this guy in here. Get over here. Get over here.

[man walks into room hand-cuffed]

Investigator: Do you know who this guy is?

Dalia Dippolito: No.

Investigator: You’ve never seen him before?

Dalia Dippolito: I’ve never seen him before. Never.

Investigator: Do you know her?

Man: [inaudible]

Detective Anderson: Put your head up and look at her.

Investigator: Put your head up.

Dalia Dippolito: I’ve never seen him.

Investigator: What were you doing coming out of her house? Get him out of here. You’re going to jail today for solicitation of murder. You’re under arrest. That’s an undercover police officer. We’ve known everything that you did, recorded everything that you did. You’re going to jail for solicitation of first degree murder of your husband.

Dalia Dippolito: I didn’t do anything.

Investigator: Did you hear what I just told you?

Dalia Dippolito: I heard what you said but I …

Investigator: Everything, listen to me, everything has been recorded. You were photographed in the convertible when you sat in his car in front of CVS. What do you want to do?

Dalia Dippolito: Oh my God.

Investigator: What do you want to do here, Dalia?

Dalia Dippolito: I didn’t do anything.

Investigator: [Inaudble] Listen to me…

Dalia Dippolito: I didn’t do anything.

Investigator: …you’re going to jail.

Dalia Dippolito: I didn’t do anything, please, I didn’t do anything.

Investigator: Tell me you didn’t do anything.

Dalia Dippolito: I didn’t do anything.

Investigator:  You’re going to jail today. As soon as I’m done…

Dalia Dippolito: Oh my God.

Investigator: …they’re going to come in here and hand cuff you and take you to the Palm Beach County Jail, book you for solicitation of first-degree murder on your husband. Your husband is well and alive.

Dalia Dippolito: Thank God.

Investigator:  Oh yeah. Thank that.

Dalia Dippolito: Can I, can I see him, please?

Investigator: You don’t want to see him.

Dalia Dippolito: I just want to see him, please.

Investigator:  He doesn’t want to see you.

Dalia Dippolito: Please.

Investigator: You better quit your playing. Listen to me…

Dalia Dippolito: Oh my God.

Investigator: I want you to quit your acting and get this over with.

Dalia Dippolito: I’m not.

Investigator: Yes you are.

Dalia Dippolito: I’m not.

Investigator:  Okay, you know what? You need a real good attorney, you need a real good attorney because we’re going to show them this film where you say you are five thousand percent sure you want him dead. You think I made that up? You think I made that up? Exactly is what’s gonna happen. I’m done talking with you. When I leave this room, no other officer will ever talk to you again. The next time we see you is when you’re in trial. And you can make it right here, or you’re going to trial and you’re going to do life in prison. You want to cooperate with us, whatever you want to do. It’s over and done once I walk out. I’m not coming back in talk to you and no one else is either. What do you want to do before I leave here? Because the next officer that comes here is going to hand cuff you and take you to the jail.

Dalia Dippolito: I want to see my husband, please.

Investigator: Nope, he doesn’t want to see you. He doesn’t want to see you. I’m leaving now. Can you have an officer come here and cuff this, the person?

Dalia Dippolito: I don’t know what’s going on, please.

Investigator: Go ahead and arrest her for solicitation of first degree murder.

Dalia Dippolito: [inaudible crying]

Officer 1: [inaudble] stand up.

Officer 2: Stand up, please.

Dalia Dippolito: Oh my God.

Officer 1: Sit back down.

Investigator: Here, stand right here. You can stay right there.

Dalia Dippolito: Oh my God!

Investigator: He’s alive!

Dalia Dippolito: Come here, please. Come here, Mike, come here. Come here. Please. Come here.

Husband: Can’t. Can’t.

Dalia Dippolito: Why can’t you? I didn’t do anything!

Investigator: I heard you!

Dalia Dippolito: Mike, come here please! Come here.

Investigator: Okay. Thanks. Take her back to booking please.

Dalia Dippolito: Oh my God.

Officer 1: Common’.

[second interview]

Investigator 2: Your first name is Dalia?

Dalia Dippolito: [nods]

Investigator 2: Okay.

Investigator 3: That how you pronounce it, Dalia?

Dalia Dippolito: [nods]

Investigator 2: Have you been advised of your rights before? That a yes? Your Miranda Rights…

Dalia Dippolito: Yes, but I wanted to make a phone call.

Investigator 3: Okay, earlier this morning. I’m Sargent [inaudible] read you your rights from that card, right, and you understood your Miranda Rights? Your 5th Amendment rights?

Dalia Dippolito: Yeah, but I wanted to make a phone call.

Investigator 3: Okay, so well, phone call. We’ll be willing to do that later, not right now though.

Dalia Dippolito: But while I’m still here?

Investigator 3: Um, yeah, later on we will. Okay? [cross talk]

Investigator 2: Now, did you understand your rights?

Dalia Dippolito: [shakes head ‘no’]

Investigator 2: You didn’t understand them?

Dalia Dippolito: I wasn’t really paying attention. [inaudible]

Investigator 2: Okay. Okay. What I’ll do is read them again. If you have any questions, just go ahead and ask me and I’ll explain them to you. Okay. You have the right to reman silent and not answer any questions, do you understand that?

Dalia Dippolito: [nods]

Investigator 2: I need a yes or a no.

Dalia Dippolito: Yeah.

Investigator 2: Any, any statement you make must be freely and voluntarily given. Do you understand that?

Dalia Dippolito: Yes.

Investigator 2: You have the right to the presence and representation of a lawyer of your choice before you make any statements and during any questioning. Do you understand that?

Dalia Dippolito: So, when you start asking, in the middle if it starts getting uncomfortable then I can have my attorney, is that what you’re saying?

Investigator 3: It’s your right to remain silent and request a lawyer. Yes. Okay. Do you understand that?

Dalia Dippolito: [nods]

Investigator 3: Yes, right?

Dalia Dippolito: Yes. Sorry.

Investigator 2: Yes. Okay. If you can not afford a lawyer you are entitled to the presence and representation of a court appointed lawyer before you make any statements or during any questioning. Do you understand that?

Dalia Dippolito: Yeah.

Investigator 2: If at any time during our interview you do not wish to answer any questions, you’re privileged to remain silent. Do you understand that?

Dalia Dippolito: Yes.

Investigator 2: I can’t make any threats or promises to induce you to make any statements, this must be of your own free will.

Dalia Dippolito: Yes.

Investigator:  Okay. Any statement can and will be used against you in court of law. Do you understand that?

Dalia Dippolito: Yeah.

Investigator 2: Have her sign here again?

Investigator 3: No.

Investigator 2: Okay. Is this your signature?

Dalia Dippolito: Yeah.

Investigator 2: Okay.

Investigator 3:  Okay. So you understand your 5th Amendment Rights, now, all of them?

Dalia Dippolito: Yeah.

Investigator 3: Okay. Um…

Dalia Dippolito: Can I go to the regular restroom, please, before we start? Is it okay?

Investigator 3: Can you… is it an emergency?

Dalia Dippolito: I didn’t feel comfortable in the other one.

Investigator 3:  Okay.

Dalia Dippolito: I’m sorry, I…

Investigator 3: No problem, no problem. She has to go to the bathroom.

Investigator 2: Okay, then we’ll come back and I’ll talk to the lawyer and….

Dalia Dippolito: Thank you.

[all exits room]

[conversation between investigators about if someone needs to be in the bathroom with her, to leave the door open, and that one investigator needs to ask the questions]

[all enters room]

Dalia Dippolito: Thank you.

Investigator 2: You’re welcome.  Alright, mind if I call you Dalia?

Dalia Dippolito: Yeah, please do.

Investigator 2:  Alright, um, you understand what happened today? What’s going on here?

Dalia Dippolito: A little.

Investigator 2: Okay.

Dalia Dippolito: Now, slowly, I’m understanding a little bit better.

Investigator 2: What’s your understanding?

Dalia Dippolito: I was told one thing and now it’s totally like all these things are, like, I don’t, I mean, I don’t really know what happened.

Investigator 3:  Do you know that you are arrested today? You’re being arrested.

Dalia Dippolito: That part I understood.

Investigator 3:  Okay. Do you know what for?

Dalia Dippolito: Not really, no.

Investigator 3: [cross talk] the charge?

Dalia Dippolito: No, nobody…

Investigator 3: Go ahead, tell her the charge, Alex.

Dalia Dippolito: [sighs]

Investigator 2: Okay. You’re being arrested for soliciting to commit murder. Okay, and which that means is, is you attempted to hire someone to kill someone else. Meaning your husband. Okay? And that’s why you’re here and that’s what you’re being charged with.

Dalia Dippolito: [inaudible] No.

Investigator 2: No, you don’t understand or…

Dalia Dippolito: No, I never done that.

Investigator 3: Well, that’s what you’re being charged with.

Dalia Dippolito: Okay.

Investigator 3: And uh, we have plenty of evidence to back it up. Okay? So, with your rights in mind, we want to give you an opportunity to do some soul searching maybe and maybe get a lot off your chest and tell us the truth. That’s what we want to hear. I mean, this has been worked for a couple days now. It’s not just the first day we’ve been doing this, in reference to this case, and we have a lot of information to support our charge.  This is not what we’d call a quick little thing. So, we know when you’re lying to us and all of that, we just want to hear the truth. I mean, it’s done, it’s over with now. You know, and uh, this is your opportunity to tell us the truth. That’s all we want to hear, and we know the truth, so. I know it’s hard to commit to that but now’s your time, you know? You have anything to say about this?

Dalia Dippolito: I want to talk to my husband.

Investigator 3: Okay, well, you can’t talk to your husband. He’s not here right now. Let him go home. He’s taking care of the house and the dogs. Um, well, obviously your husband is alive. You saw him, right?

Dalia Dippolito: I saw him. I would like to talk to him.

Investigator 3: Okay, did and you seen that black officer that was here…

Dalia Dippolito: I…

Investigator 3: … in handcuffs. Well, he’s an officer. Okay? So, it doesn’t get any clearer than that. I mean, you know? I know it’s hard but…

Investigator 2: You know, people make mistakes sometimes, you know? The good thing about this whole thing is, that nobody got killed. Alright? The gentleman that walked into the room, he said it’s an officer. Alright? It’s not the first day we’ve been working this, alright? It’s an ongoing investigation.  Where we have you talking to this guy. We’ve listened to every conversation you had. Alright? So now if you’re, you know, tell the truth and do the right thing, that’s, you know? That’s when you reach inside you and you know, “fuck we made mistakes”. You know, everybody makes mistakes. Um, but tragedy was prevented today. You could look at it that way. You know? That simple.

Investigator 3: A big tragedy. I mean, someone’s life. So. Everything is on tape, Dalia. There’s no denying it. You know? Everything’s on tape and that’s not a bluff so. Phone conversations and there’s some video, too, so.

Investigator 2: What are you thinking?

Dalia Dippolito: That I’d like to make a phone call. I just feel lost, I mean…

Investigator 3: Who do you want to call?

Dalia Dippolito: I’d like to call me mom.

Investigator 2: We’ll let you call your mom after this is done, I mean…

Dalia Dippolito: I mean I’m not, you know, I mean, everyone keeps coming and I’m signing all these things and going over all these things and I don’t really know what they’re for. I’m just signing it because everyone’s saying “well, you know, if you sign this we’ll help you” or “we’ll this” or “we’ll that” and…

Investigator 3: I don’t know about that but the only thing we, we’re concerned with is the rights card and we went over that twice.

Dalia Dippolito: [crosstalk] came and I guess that may have been for release of the tape earlier, I don’t know because he never came back and I signed something and I don’t really know what it was.

Investigator 2: Okay, well…

Dalia Dippolito: I mean, I was hysterical like when he came and…

Investigator 3: [crosstalk] I’m sorry, go ahead, Alex.

Investigator 2: And that’s understandable, okay? Our main concern right now is the fact that a crime, with, you know, you actually, you got to understand this, okay. Dalia, listen to me for a second, okay?

Dalia Dippolito: I didn’t do anything.

Investigator 2: Listen to me for a second, okay? This is not our first day, okay? It’s definitely not our second day, alright? It’s an ongoing investigation, alright? Not only do we have you on video tape, we have every conversation that you’ve had leading to this point, alright? So for you to sit here and deny. that you haven’t done anything is not going to help, alright? Cause we know the, we know the whole story from the beginning to the end to this point that we’re at right here right now, alright? Everything that you’ve done since this started, we’ve been involved in it. Do you understand that?

Dalia Dippolito: I understand what you guys are saying and I’m not trying to lie to you or anything.

Investigator 2: Okay, well, I’m just [crosstalk] I’m not making, I mean, I’m just telling you the truth. That’s the truth. Alright?

Dalia Dippolito: I just want to go home.

Investigator 2: Well, unfortunately you’re not going home. Okay? You’re looking at some serious charges here. Do you understand that you made the attempt to hire somebody to kill your husband? That’s how serious this is. Okay, you can sit here and shake your head and deny it but, I’m going to tell you right now, alright, when they, when the judge and the jury see that video tape of this conversation making a deal, alright? That’s how far you went. Alright? It not about denying it, “it wasn’t me I didn’t do anything” because the video, the audio, it’s not going to lie. And all of the evidence we collected in this evidence.

Investigator 3: You sound like a fool denying all of this because like my partner just said, everything’s on tape. Video and audio.

Dalia Dippolito: I just want to go home.

Investigator 3:  I know but you’re not going home. You see? You’re being arrested so you’re not going home.

Dalia Dippolito: What do I have to do to go home? I’d just like to go home.

Investigator 3: I know but you can’t, it’s impossible. You’re going to the Palm Beach County Jail after this. You can’t go home. You’re being arrested. This is not a game. In your mind it might be a little game but this is very serious. Murder? You kidding me? Try to have someone kill…

[tape ends]

Daniel Hernandez (6ix 9ine) Partial Testimony Transcript

 

6ix 9ineDaniel Hernandez is a rap artist who goes by the names 6ix 9ine and Tekashi69. On November 18th, 2018, Hernandez and four associates were arrested and charged with RICO and firearms charges which could have led to a sentence of life in prison. In February, as part of a plea deal that may allow Hernandez to avoid jail time if he testifies against fellow gang members, he pled guilty to 9 charges. These charges included one count of racketeering, four counts of firearm charges, two counts of assault with a dangerous weapon, one count of attempted murder, and one count of conspiracy to distribute one kilogram or more of heroin. One of the associates Hernandez is testifying against, Anthony (Harv) Ellison, had robbed Hernandez at gun point of several hundred thousand dollars’ worth of jewelry, kidnapped, and beaten him a week prior to his arrest.  The following is a small portion of his testimony transcription. More will be added as it is released.

Daniel Hernandez Partial Testimony Transcript

Daniel Hernandez: D-A-N-I-E-L space H-E-R-N-A-N-D-E-Z

Judge: Alright, good afternoon. I’ll ask you please keep your voice up and speak slowly for the benefit of everybody in the court room. Counsel, you may inquire.

Lawyer 1: Thank you, your honor.  Good Afternoon, Mr. Hernandez.

Daniel Hernandez: Thank you.

Lawyer 1: Mr. Hernandez, how old are you?

Daniel Hernandez: 23.

Lawyer 1: Do you go by any other names?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes.

Lawyer 1: What are those names?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, Tekashi, Tekashi Six Nine, um, [inaudible]. Yeah.

Lawyer 1: Mr. Hernandez, where were you born?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, [inaudible] Brooklyn.

Lawyer 1: How far did you go in school?

Daniel Hernandez: About the tenth, uh, eleventh grade. Something like that.

Lawyer 1: Mr. Hernandez, are you currently in federal custody?

Daniel Hernandez:  Yes, sir.

Lawyer 1: Approximately when did you start living in federal custody?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, about, no, um, November 18th, 2018.

Lawyer 1: What were you arrested for?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, racketeering charges, um, you know, violent crimes; shootings, uh, drug distribution.

Lawyer 1: At some point did you decide to cooperate with the government?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes.

Lawyer 1: When did that happen?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, a day after, um, November 19th, the day after, uh, we, we was taken down.

Lawyer 1: In connection with your cooperation have you pleaded guilty to certain crimes?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes.

Lawyer 1: What crimes did you plea guilty to?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, I believe it was nine counts of racketeering, um, shootings, uh, and, and drug distribution.

Lawyer 1: And you listed racketeering as one of the crimes in which you pleaded guilty, were you a member of any gang?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes, sir.

Lawyer 1: What was the name of the gang you were a member of?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, the Nine Trey Bloods, Nine Trey [inaudible].

Lawyer 1: Approximately when did you become a member?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, around, uh, I would say November of 2017.

Lawyer 1: What sorts of things did Nine Trey members do?

Daniel Hernandez: I’m sorry?

Lawyer 1: What sorts of things did Nine Trey members do?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, we participated in a lot of, uh, you know, violent crimes. Um, robberies, assaults, uh, drugs. Sorts of that nature.

Lawyer 1: Mr. Hernandez, do you recognize anyone in the court room who was a member of Nine Trey when you were a member?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes.

Lawyer 1: Who do you recognize? And if you could identify that person, uh, could you identify where they are sitting at or an article of clothing that that person may be wearing?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, Harv, Anthony Ellison has a grey suit. Um, and uh Nuke, Aljermiah Mach, has the brown suit on with the white thing on his head.

Lawyer 1: Your honor, could the record reflect that the witness identified Mr.Mack and Mr. Ellison?

Judge: Yes, the record reflects that Mr. um, um, Hernandez in sequence identified Mr. Ellison and then Mr. Mack.

Lawyer 1: Thank you, your honor. Now, Mr. Hernandez, now we will turn back to Nine Trey in a minute. Before we do, I would like to ask you some questions about your life before Nine Trey. Where did you grow up?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, I was raised and lived, uh [inaudible] Brooklyn.

Lawyer 1: Where did you go to school?

Daniel Hernandez: Um, for elementary I went to PS59, uh middle school [inaudible] and uh, high school for the time being I went to Legacy High School. Legacy. Yeah. Legacy High School.

Lawyer 1: Did you work?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes.

Lawyer 1: What did you do?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, started working at, I want to say, the age of thirteen. Uh, my first job was at the Green Point Youth Court. It’s a job that handles like, misdemeanor cases for youth. Um, where the youth acts in like a band of judge, jury, youth advocate, community advocate, that type of thing. I did that about for two months, uh, no, no.

Lawyer 1: Mr. Hernandez, I’m going to cut you off. I think you are, uh, speaking so close to the mic that you’re blurring some of words. If you move back a tiny bit from the mic but keep your voice up and speak slowly. Thank you.

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, so I did that for about a year. Um, I didn’t make a lot of money doing that, so I started working with my brother. Uh, bussing tables. I did that for about a year and a half. Then I got at a job at grocery store named “Stay Fresh and Grill”. Worked as a delivery boy. I did that about two years. Uh, I worked up to register. Shortly after that, I landed another bus boy job and then after that became a rapper.

Lawyer 1: So, you said that you started a music career, is that right?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes.

Lawyer 1: Approximately when did that happen?

Daniel Hernandez: Let’s say around 2014. Uh…

Lawyer 1: And how did it come about?

Daniel Hernandez: Well, at the store I was working in, Stay Fresh and Grill, uh, it was a guy under the name Peter Rodger, always coming in there buying a tea and a tilapia, some peanuts, stuff like that. He asked me, uh, if I, if I make music and if I rap. Uh, and I was like “no” and he was like “you got the image for it, you look, you look cool”. I was like, you know, I took that into consideration. Then we started making music from the, from the deli.

Lawyer 1: And again, this is around 2014?

Daniel Hernandez:  Yes sir, like late 2014. Like September.

Lawyer 1: So, when you started making music around 2014, what type of music were you making?

Daniel Hernandez: It was more of like a rock ‘n’ roll, uh, rap.

Lawyer 1: Approximately how many records or songs did you release?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, eight I believe. I believe around eight.

Lawyer 1: Did you go on any tours?

Daniel Hernandez: Yeah.

Lawyer 1: Where did you tour?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, Eastern Europe. Um, I toured in um, Bratislava, Slovakia, Bratislava, Slovakia. Uh, Prague, Czech Republic, Brno Czech Republic, uh, St. Petersburg Russia and uh Moscow.

Lawyer 1: Were you making any money at this time as a, as a metal rap performer?

Daniel Hernandez: Um, I mean for all those shows I made about like $2000 profit. I, I did it just for the experience.

Lawyer 1: Now, Mr. Hernandez, did there come a time when the type of music you recorded change?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes.

Lawyer 1: Approximately when did that happen?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, around, uh, it changed, in September 2017.

Lawyer 1: Now, directing your attention to September 2017, did there come a time when you filmed a music video in Brooklyn?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes, sir.

Lawyer 1: Where in Brooklyn?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, Bedford-Stuyvesant Brooklyn, um, on Madison between uh, Tompkins Avenue and Troop.

Lawyer 1: Do you remember the address?

Daniel Hernandez: I believe, want to say it was 370 Madison.

Lawyer 1:  370?

Daniel Hernandez: 370.

Lawyer 1: Mrs. Horney, Can we please pull up for the witness what’s been marked for identification as government exhibit 202? Mr. Hernandez, do you see government exhibit 202?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes.

Lawyer 1: What is that?

Daniel Hernandez: 370 Madison.

Lawyer 1: Is that a photograph of 370 Madison?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes, sir.

Lawyer 1: Fairly and accurately depict how 370 Madison looked?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes, sir.

Lawyer 1: Your honor, government offers government exhibit 202.

Judge: Any objection?

Lawyer 2: None, your honor.

[cross talk]

Judge: Proceed.

Lawyer 1: May we publish it, your honor?

Judge: Yes.

Lawyer 1: So, you filmed the music video in front of 370 Madison?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes, sir.

Lawyer 1: What was the name of that song?

Daniel Hernandez: Gummo. Gummo. G-U-M-M-O.

Lawyer 1: Mr. Hernandez, how did the filming of Gummo come about?

Daniel Hernandez: Um, around August of 2017 I made the song Gummo.

[missing portion]

Lawyer 1: Mr. Hernandez, I’m going to ask you some questions about the lyrics of Gummo, uh, beginning with the first line in reference to the word “blicky”. What’s a “blicky”?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, “blicky” is another word for a gun.

Lawyer 1: And in the second line there’s a phrase in the middle, “drum, it holds 50”, what is that in reference to?

Daniel Hernandez: A drum is an attachment you add to a gun. Carries an, uh, extra clips. Bullets.

Lawyer 1: Turning to the next stanza, the second line of the second stanza. Uh, there’s a line there “in the hood with them billy n-word, and them hoover n-word”, what is that in reference to?

Daniel Hernandez: Just me stating who, um, I’m around.

Lawyer 1: And, and what is “Billy”?

Daniel Hernandez: Billy is Nine Trey.

Lawyer 1: And Hoover?

Daniel Hernandez: Hoover is it’s own set. Like, their own thing.

Lawyer 1: And the last line, “No KB, you’re a loser n-word, up that Uzi n-word”, what is that in reference, who, first of all, what is KB?

Daniel Hernandez: KB is a, is a, uh, was like a body guard for, uh, another rapper named Trippy Red. So I stated “No, KB”, like if you didn’t have KB you would lose an n-word. “Up that Uzi” n-word. Uzi is another rapper that was related, that, uh, people compared to Trippy Red so I said if you don’t have KB watching over you, you will lose somebody and I’ll up the Uzi. It, I don’t know, I thought it was cool at the time.

Lawyer 1: Well, Mr. Hernandez, what was, what is Gummo about, generally speaking?

Daniel Hernandez: It’s, uh, it was actually a, a, a diss song. A diss song is like uh, something, how do I say, its a song towards, like,  someone I didn’t get along with. Best way I can describe it.

Lawyer 1: And who was the diss song aimed at?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, Trippy Red.

Lawyer 1: Why?

Daniel Hernandez: Me and him were signed to the same label, um, around, around 2017 when I signed my first deal. Me and Trippy Red were signed to the same label. Uh, he signed first. I then signed right after. There was a lot of jealousy involved. Um, a lot of arguments back and forth on social media. So, I made the song in, in, in the midst of the situation.

Lawyer 1: Did you have an understanding of whether or not Trippy Red was affiliated with a gang?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes.

Lawyer 1: And what gang was that?

Daniel Hernandez: He, he, he, uh, I think he was, say, he was part of five nine brim.

Lawyer 1: What’s five nine brim?

Daniel Hernandez: It’s another blood set.

Lawyer 1: Is that a rival set to Nine Trey?

Daniel Hernandez: Um, I mean it became another rival at the time.

Lawyer 1: So, um, okay, we can take down 60-17. So, Mr. Hernandez, after you had filmed Gummo, did there come a point, did there come a point in time where Gummo was released on the internet?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes.

Lawyer 1: What happened after Gummo was released on the internet?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, I think we released Gummo in about, in about October. Around October. Uh, Gummo became an instant, an instant sensation. It was a sensation. It went viral. Viral meaning people shared it. Uh, people, you know, came to like the video “Gummo”. They liked the song. So it was instant success I would say.

Lawyer 1: After the release of Gummo, did you have any other conversations with either Seiko or Shotti about doing another video?

Daniel Hernandez: Yeah.

Lawyer 1: About, about filming another video.

Daniel Hernandez: Um, yeah. So, so when I released Gummo I was in Los Angles. Uh, I wasn’t authorized to release the video with, with the label. Uh, so, I just put it out anyway. I just threw it up on YouTube and just said “whatever happens, happens.” When I uploaded the video and it was such, like, a lot of people was showing attention to it. Uh, Shotti actually called Seiko and said, uh, quote “this little nigga knows what he’s doing, um, I thought all that rainbow hair shit was um, you know, he was buggin’ for that but he knows what he’s doing. Tell him to stay in touch.”

Lawyer 1: What happened?

Daniel Hernandez: I stayed in touch.

Lawyer 1: Did there come a time where you, where you made another video?

Daniel Hernandez: Yeah, about a month after uh, we uh, we filmed Kooda. Um…

Lawyer 1: And so, and so how did the filming of Kooda come about? And I’m sorry, could you spell Kooda for the court reporter?

Daniel Hernandez: Kooda. K-O-O-D-A.

Lawyer 1: How did Kooda come about?

Daniel Hernandez: Well, after, after uh, after we shot Gummo um, I knew I had a formula. I knew the formula was, uh, to repeat it. You know what I’m saying? Uh…

Lawyer 1: To repeat what?

Daniel Hernandez: To repeat the, the, the gang, uh, how, what’s the word for it, the gang, um…image, I would say. Like, like promote it? You know what I’m saying? That’s what people liked so it was like, um… It was just a formula, a blueprint I found that worked. So, I told Shotti “I want to film”. At this time after Gummo came out. Not to skip over a lot of stuff, we became very close. So, I would hang out at 370 Madison a lot. Hang out with him, um, and uh, I asked him to, um, if, if it was a good idea to film Kooda. And uh, we started filming Kooda.

Lawyer 1: At approximately when, in relation to when Gummo was released, when did you film…

Daniel Hernandez: I would say late October, early November.

Lawyer 1: How did you come up with the name “Kooda”.

Daniel Hernandez: Kooda is actually a, um, another rapper. Before I changed my style of rap, I was into this kid named Kooda. Um, I always thought his, he was a talented kid. I actually liked him a lot, so I named my song after him.

Lawyer 1: Now, Ms. Horney, if we could please show for the witness what’s been marked for identification as government exhibit 23. Mr. Hernandez, what is government exhibit 23?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, it’s Kooda.

Lawyer 1: A picture of Kooda?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes, sir.

Lawyer 1: Fairly and accurately depicted what he looked like?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes, sir.

Lawyer 1:  Your honor, government offers government exhibits 23 and 23a.

Lawyer 2: No objections.

Judge: Received.

Lawyer 1: May we publish government exhibit 23?

Judge: Yes.

Lawyer 1: Thank you, Ms. Horney. Now, Mr. Hernandez, where was, uh, where was Kooda filmed?

Daniel Hernandez: Kooda was, Kooda was filmed um, in Brooklyn. Um, in the intersection of Fulton Avenue and Utica, I believe. Um, yeah. In like Crime Heights, Brooklyn.

Lawyer 1: Is there a housing development that’s around Utica and Fulton?

Daniel Hernandez: Yeah, uh, Smurf, Smurf Village.

Lawyer 1:  Does Smurf Village have any relationship to Nine Trey?

Daniel Hernandez: It’s, there’s Nine Trey members who live there.

Lawyer 1: Now, Mr. Hernandez, if you could turn, there’s a CD in front of you marked government exhibit 609. Ms. Horney, if we could open up just the opening frame. Prior to testimony did you review the contents of government exhibit 609?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes, sir.

Lawyer 1: What is, what is on 609?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, video of Kooda.

Lawyer 1: Is it all of Kooda or a portion?

Daniel Hernandez: A portion.

Lawyer 1:  And also, if you could please, Ms. Horney, pull up government exhibit 609 T. Do you see 609 T in front of you?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes.

Lawyer 1: And what’s 609 T?

Daniel Hernandez: It’s the beginning of Kooda.

Lawyer 1: The lyrics?

Daniel Hernandez: The lyrics, yeah.

Lawyer 1: Your honor, the government offers government exhibit 609T.

Judge: Uh…

Lawyer 2: No objections.

Judge: Received.

[cross talk]

Lawyer 1: …if I had offered government exhibit 609.

Judge: I think that had not been offered. Any objections?

Lawyer 2: No objections.

Judge: Received.

Lawyer 1: Thank you, your honor. Now, um, Ms. Horney, could you please publish and play exhibit 609.

Judge: Should the ladies and gentlement of the jury, turn to 609 T, at this point?

Lawyer 1: Not at this point. I think we will watch the video and then we’ll turn to the lyrics.

Judge: Very good.

Lawyer 1: Thank you, Ms. Horney. If we could turn the volume down, uh, and as we with Gummo we’ll just go to certain clips in the video. And if we could go to about 20 seconds into the video. If we could go just a little [inaudible], I’m sorry. Start at 19 seconds. Play it. Stop. Mr. Hernandez, in the middle of the screen, who’s depicted there?

Daniel Hernandez: Seiko Billy.

Lawyer 1: And behind Seiko Billy in the, and I’m sorry, are you on the right side of the screen here? Are you depicted on the right side of the screen? Is that your arm?

Daniel Hernandez: That’s my hair, yeah. My arm.

Lawyer 1: And behind you, who’s behind you? Behind your arm? Did you see the…

Daniel Hernandez: Billy [inaudible]

Lawyer 1: Billy [inaudible]

Daniel Hernandez: Yeah.

Lawyer 1: Now, Ms. Horney, if we could, if we go to 30 seconds in the video… Who’s depicted, who’s depicted here, Mr. Hernandez?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, the guy in the red jacket, blue and white, is Midnight?

Lawyer 1: And who’s Midnight?

Daniel Hernandez: Midnight, um, from my understanding, when, um, I was first introduced to Nine Trey, he was um, he was the one who had, um, had the big homie status in Smurf Village. In the housing project across the street from Kooda.

Lawyer 1: Is he Nine Trey?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes, sir.

Lawyer 1: By “big homie” does that mean he had high ranking status?

Daniel Hernandez: From my understanding, yes.

Lawyer 1: Thank you, Ms. Horney, we can take down 609. If we could pull up, please, 609 T and zoom in on the uh, on the lyrics. And your honor, at this point [inaudible] the jury…

Judge: Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, please turn now to 609 T in your binders.

Lawyer 1: Mr. Hernandez, the first line n – word running out they mouth but they never pop out, what is that [something slams]

Daniel Hernandez: Well, the whole, the whole paragraph of, uh, it speaks about, uh, well the first line, actually it’s about, I wanted to address all the controversy that was going on, um, after Gummo was released. A lot of people didn’t understand it.

Lawyer 1: Didn’t understand what?

Daniel Hernandez: Didn’t understand how uh, I guess a kid with rainbow hair could be affiliated with Nine Trey Bloods. It just didn’t mix. So, um, the first line is “n – word running out they mouth but they never pop out”. Just in general speaking. Um like, people, if you replace “n-word” with “people”, “people running out they mouth but they never pop out”. So that’s what I meant by it.

Lawyer 1: And again, what was the, the genesis of Kooda? Why, why, why did you make Kooda? Was it in response to anything?

Daniel Hernandez: Yeah, it was a response to everything. Ah, all, all the back lash from, uh, the public. To um, you know, just, the, the, the Trippy Red stuff going on, everything, other rappers talking, you know?

Lawyer 1: In the third line it reads “all my n-word on 50 so you know we hopped out”, the phrase “on 50”, what does that mean?

Daniel Hernandez: “On 50” is to be on point. Like to be aware.

Lawyer 1: Is that, is that, a, a term associated with Nine Trey or Bloods in general?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, bloods in general. I, I mean I just think gangs…

Lawyer 2: Objection, leading.

Lawyer 1: I’m sorry.

Judge: One moment. Sustained.

Lawyer 1: Mr. Hernandez, uh, the term “on 50”, um, how do you know about that term?

Daniel Hernandez: Well, I, I was taught about all, um, you know, well not all the terms. I learned a couple, uh, just talking with Seiko Billy and “on 50” um, you know?

Lawyer 1: Did you talk to, did you talk to other people?

Daniel Hernandez: Yeah, Shotti.

Lawyer 1: And what did they teach you?

Daniel Hernandez: Well, uh, after Kooda, uh…

Lawyer 1: Ah, I’m sorry, before Kooda, as you were writing Kooda…

Daniel Hernandez: Okay, yeah.

Lawyer 1: …[inaudible] some of the terms in the lyrics, how did you come about drafting those lyrics or coming up with those lyrics?

Daniel Hernandez: Well, me and my best friend Andrew, we write together. Uh, but you know, I would spend a lot of time, you know, with Nine Trey at 370 Maddison, always “on 50” or…

Lawyer 1: So, based on your time with Nine Trey did you learn any of their lingo or words that they used?

Daniel Hernandez: Say that one more time?

Lawyer 1: Based on your time that you spent with members of Nine Trey, did you learn about some of their lingo or words that they used?

Daniel Hernandez: Correct.

Lawyer 1: Is “on 50” one of those terms?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes.

Lawyer 1: And what does “on 50” mean?

Daniel Hernandez: To be aware.

Lawyer 1: On the next line, line 4, it reads “mobbed out, opps out, we gonna show what we about”, what are you talking about in that line?

Daniel Hernandez: So, in this line I’m saying, um, mob, mobbed out, like, mob. Referencing like, when we’re in large numbers and we’re, you know, mobbed out. “Opps out” is like opposition. Like the opps. The opposition, our opposition, our opps. So we’re mobbed out, there’s opps out, we gon’ show what we about.

Lawyer 1: Thank you, Ms. Horney. We can take down 609 T.

Judge:  Mr. [inaudible] are you done with the examination of this exhibit?

Lawyer 1: Yes, I am.

Judge: Alright. I am looking for a natural break point because I understand the Juror’s uh, uh [inaudible] Alright ladies and gentlemen….