Russell Williams Police Interrogation Transcript

On February 7th, 2010, former Colonel in the Canadian Forces, Russell Williams, was interviewed by the Ottawa Police’s Detective Smyth. In this interview, Williams admits to the murder of two women and the sexual assaults of two others. He was formally charged with two counts of first degree murder, sexual assault, two counts of forcible confinement, and 84 counts of breaking and entering. A case summary can be found here.

**The following interrogation transcript includes details from the sexual assaults that had been edited out of the official Ontario Provincial Police transcript.**

Russell Williams Police Interrogation Transcript

Detective: Just have a seat here, Russ.

Russell Williams: The guy I was speaking with on whatever night that was, was Russ as well.

Detective: Oh, yeah?

Russell Williams: And, and he took, uh, took every number I had.

Detective: Yeah, oh they were uh, doing some pretty thorough interviews that night.

Russell Williams: Yeah, absolutely. I was…

Detective: Alright.

Russell Williams: Glad to see it.

Detective: Uh, I’m just going to move your gloves, uh, that’s a little microphone.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Just make sure it’s nice and clear, um, as you can see here everything in this room is, uh, videotaped and audio taped.

Russell Williams: Check.

Detective: Uh, ever been interviewed by the police in a, in a room like this before or?

Russell Williams: I have never been interviewed like this…

Detective: Oh, no? okay.

Russell Williams: This is the closest to interview for NIS for top secret clearance.

Detective: Oh, yeah? Alright, well, again Russell, I appreciate you coming in, uh, an investigation like this, I mean, I’m sure you can appreciate its been big news, uh…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Especially down, uh, Belleville way uh, and you know obviously our approach in cases like this is that uh, uh, we don’t give up on somebody being alive until…

Russell Williams: Mm-Hm.

Detective: We get evidence that they’re not so um, because of that we’re treating, uh, Jessica’s case as an emergent situation obviously.

Russell Williams: Absolutely, yeah.

Detective: Um, so we’re, we’re fast forwarding things that we might normally take our time with…

Russell Williams: Mm-Hmm.

Detective: Uh, and that’s why, uh, we’re here on a Sunday afternoon, uh…

Russell Williams: Sure.

Detective: So, uh, again I appreciate it.

Russell Williams: No problem.

Detective: Um, we’re going to do a pretty thorough interview today.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Okay, um, the reason for that is because, uh, the last thing we want is to be calling people back again and again and again, okay?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Um, so what we’re going to do is we’re going to go over a number of things and uh…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: I’m going to explain what all those are to you.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Okay, um, I’m a big coffee guy. I don’t know if you’re a coffee guy or not.

Russell Williams: I am a coffee guy, actually, yeah.

Detective: I don’t want to drink in front of you so, um…

Russell Williams: No, no, I appreciate that.

Detective: Alright, go ahead.

Russell Williams: I could, uh, definitely. Are they black?

Detective: Yeah, they’re just black with, uh, with sugar, uh…

Russell Williams: Uh, you could definitely uh, take [inaudible]. Well, I just started my gum so I’ll probably have it in a little bit.

Detective: Sorry, you what? Sorry.

Russell Williams: Gum, just..

Detective: Oh [laughs]

Russell Williams: I just put a piece of gum in.

Detective: There’s napkins here if you want to toss it or whatever.

Russell Williams: I appreciate that.

Detective: Alright, and again, um, like I said this interview’s going to be very thorough.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Um, but again, uh, I have a simple rule when I talk to people. It’s, uh, I’m sure you’re the same way. I treat people, everybody, with respect and…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: I’ll ask that you do the same for me. Um, so what we’re going to do is we’re going to start off by, uh, going through, um, what your rights are, okay?

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Just like everybody else.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Okay, um, have you been read your rights before?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: No? I’m sure you’ve seen it on TV a whole bunch of times.

Russell Williams: Oh, yeah.

Detective: But it’s usually the American version so…

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: I’ll go over it with you briefly, okay?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Uh, basically in Canada, uh, as you know, I’m sure is, uh, we all have, uh, our rights guaranteed under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Russell Williams: Right.

Detective: Okay, now, uh, Russell, just to avoid any confusion ‘cause some people do get confused when they’re talked to by the police is that, uh…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Um, you’re obviously not under arrest for today, okay?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Anytime you feel, uh, you want to leave here, you feel free to do so. The door’s not locked. Theresa will walk you down to the lobby anytime you want.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Okay, um, if there’s anything that comes up in our interview today, Russell, that uh, that you feel you want to talk, uh, to a lawyer about…

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Um, you just, uh, you just let me know.

Russell Williams: Sure.

Detective: Alright and the reason for that is when I explain to you exactly what’s going on here, okay, um, uh, Jessica, uh, Lloyd is um, is one of uh, four cases that we’re currently investigating.

Russell Williams: Right.

Detective: Um, and essentially what’s happened over the past, uh, uh, about four or five months…

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: Um, there have been four occurrences, uh, like I said, that we’re looking into.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Uh, two of those occurrences occurred in September of 2009.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Uh, and very briefly they were up in the, uh, the Tweed area.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Uh, they involved, uh, somebody entering uh, two different woman’s houses.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Um, in the evening hours and uh, committing, uh, sexual acts.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, uh, in, uh, November 2009…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Uh, a young lady by the name of, uh, Marie-France, uh, Comeau, uh…

Russell Williams: One of my people, yeah.

Detective: Yeah, was found, uh, murdered in her home in Brighton.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: And, uh, we believe that there was a sexual component to that crime as well.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: And um, then most recently we have Jessica Lloyd’s disappearance.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, so essentially when you look at those kind of crimes we’re looking at number of different, uh, potential criminal charges, alright?

Russell Williams: I hope so.

Detective: Um, we’re looking at issues, uh, all the way from the most serious one which is first degree murder.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Uh, kidnapping, uh, sexual assault…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Uh, break and enter with intent to commit sexual assault…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Uh, forcible confinement, okay? And, uh, so what I want to make sure you understand and this is what we do literally we talking to, is that clearly when we find out who’s responsible for one or all of those crimes…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Uh, they could be charged with one or all of those offences, okay? Whether it’s you or whether it’s anybody else, alright?

Russell Williams: I’d hope so.

Detective: And that’s why it’s important that we us, make sure the people understand what they have to and what they don’t have to do when they’re talking to us.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, so as I said before, any point today, uh, you feel the need you want to speak to a lawyer, uh, you let me know.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: And uh, we can take you to a room where you can do that in private. Okay?

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Um, do you have your own lawyer?

Russell Williams: I had a reality lawyer but…

Detective: Okay. [laughs]

Russell Williams: No, I don’t have a lawyer.

Detective: Alright, um, if at any point you want to make that call and you don’t know who to call…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Uh, we have a phone list of lawyers that, uh, are available to give you advice free of charge right over the phone.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Okay, so again if at any point today you want to, uh, take advantage of that you just let me know.

Russell Williams: Sure.

Detective: Um, is there any reason you want to call a lawyer now?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay. Um, couple other, uh, fairly simple and straight forward, uh, things that uh, you probably understand but, uh, again we go over them to make sure everybody’s clear…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Is that, uh, you don’t have to speak to me today, okay?

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: And the reason for that is because the law considers me to be what we refer to as a person of authority.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, probably similar to what you may be considered to be at the base.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Um, and because of that I can be compelled to appear before any Judge in the country basically to account for what takes place here today, between you and I, okay?

Russell Williams: Sure.

Detective: Okay and that’s the reason why everything’s recorded…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …because there can’t be a more accurate record than that, right? So…

Russell Williams: No, understood.

Detective: Um, another thing I want to make sure you understand is that, uh, you know you mentioned a second ago about uh, Miss Comeau, um, being one of your, uh, work associates. Uh, so I don’t know what happened since November, um, on the military side of things, uh, but what we want to make people clear on is that, uh, if you have been spoken to by any person in authority…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …or any police officer about any of those case, um, I don’t want what they may have said to you to, uh, um, make you feel influenced or compelled to say anything to me today, okay? Whatever you might have felt influenced or compelled to say to them earlier…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective:… you don’t have to repeat to me. You don’t have to say anything further, okay?

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: But obviously what you do say you know for the third time is…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: … being recorded, right? So, uh…

Russell Williams: Understood. These first two attacks that happened, uh, not that far from my place in Tweed. Well, the second one did.

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: We didn’t even know the first one had happened but, uh, I understand that was the reasonably close as well but the second one was, uh, was very close.

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: So certainly at the time the OPP did a, uh, went door to door…

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: …and, and, uh, within a couple of days, probably the same night, so I spoke with a couple back then.

Detective: Okay, um, yeah, and I’m, I’m aware of that…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: From, uh, looking at the different cases and essentially uh, Russell, uh, in a nutshell, that’s what we wanted to, uh, to talk to you about.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Okay, um, those four cases are, uh, a concern to us.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: And uh, you know you’ve kind of, uh, all most hit the nail on the head about, uh, some of our issues that kind of, uh, make us want to talk to, to, Russell Williams, okay?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Um, cause essentially uh, there’s a, a, a, connection, um, between you and uh, and all four of those cases. Would you agree, geographically?

Russell Williams: And that I, I guess I drive past, uh, yes, uh…

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams:… I would say there’s, uh, a connection, yeah.

Detective: Yeah, and that’s what, that’s why, uh, I’ll be quite frank with you, that’s why, uh, things kind of, um, uh, evolved when uh, the officers talked to you Thursday night.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Uh, we kind of went from there because uh, when I think you discussed with the fact that you were a, uh, a, a, Colonel…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …uh, at the base.

Russell Williams: I was in uniform at the time, so…

Detective: Yeah, so pretty obvious, right?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Um, so essentially, uh, then the connection with Miss Comeau, um…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …was made. Um, and I believe you’re uh, a door or two down from one of the two, uh, incidents, uh….

Russell Williams: Think, uh…

Detective: …in Tweed.

Russell Williams: … three doors down, yeah.

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: Very close, absolutely.

Detective: Yeah, exactly. So, uh, those are some of the issues I want to discuss with you.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, um, so just getting back to uh, those four incidents that we’re talking about, um, maybe you can just give me a little bit of history as to, uh, your arrival and the uh, and the base in Trenton, when did you start working there?

[edited]

Russell Williams: Friday, on the day I was, um, hm. Friday on the day I was at home most the time, most the day. I had the start of a stomach flu.

Detective: Okay, in Ottawa or Tweed?

Russell Williams: In Tweed.

Detective: In Tweed, okay.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: So, we backtrack then. So, all day Friday you’re at home?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: And then what time do you leave to go to the base to sleep there on the Friday night?

Russell Williams: Um, mm, not sure. Probably just, you know, went in for, just before bed. Uh, so I probably left Tweed at between 8 or 9 or so.

Detective: Okay, uh, and you get to the base and spend the evening there and get up for the five thirty…

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: That’s right.

Detective: So, we back track from there, um, you, when did you arrive at your home, uh, at the cottage? I want, I don’t want you confused between home in Ottawa and the home in Tweed, so.

Russell Williams: Yeah, yeah, understood.

Detective: So, uh…

Russell Williams: No, I have been in Tweed all week.

Detective: Yup.

Russell Williams: Uh, the week prior now, um, yeah. I think that’s the case. I was in Tweed all week. Flew Saturday, headed to Ottawa Saturday night….

Detective: Okay, so, um, if you didn’t have the stomach flu on the Friday, what was your schedule like?

Russell Williams: …I think it was 7 or 8, really.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Um, what would have been my schedule? Just a standard schedule in the office.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: So, um, I’ll just brief in the morning. Couple of, uh, couple of meetings. Can’t remember what the specifics on that were going to be.

Detective: Okay, so, um, Thursday night you slept at Tweed or you…

Russell Williams: Yup.

Detective: Alright, and what did you do Thursday during the day?

Russell Williams: Thursday during the day I was at the base again. Um, I think it was a very standard day. I can’t recall exactly but uh, yeah, nothing. Was not flying so I was at the base so I would have gone in early in the morning, back in the evening again.

Detective: Okay, do you remember what time you left the base that night?

Russell Williams: [sigh] Mm… I don’t remember anything peculiar so I would say, uh, I don’t know. Probably 7 to 9 somewhere in that range.

Detective: Okay, that’s when you left?

Russell Williams: Left the base, yeah.

Detective:  And what, what’s…

Russell Williams: It’s a 45 minute transit so…

Detective: 45 minutes home.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

[edited]

Detective: Now, I’m not going to walk you through November but I’m going to take you to a date that’s probably pretty fresh in your mind, uh, uh, the day that, uh, that Marie-France, uh, Comeau…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Um, do you remember how you found out, uh…

Russell Williams: I do, yeah. I was sent an email, um [sighs]. Well, as soon as the, uh, off staff in the base learned they told me.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: So I got an email. I can’t remember if it was late at night or in the morning but certainly I saw it. Uh, I want to say first thing in the morning because I had just come back from Ottawa. I was in Ottawa for uh, um, a set of meetings on one of the days, I can’t remember what, what day of the week we’re talking about but uh, yeah, no, I mean, obviously one of your people gets killed it, uh, gets your attention, so…

Detective: Absolutely.

Russell Williams: Everyone [inaudible].

Detective: And how did you know Marie-France Comeau?

Russell Williams: I only met her once. Um, she was on a crew, uh, I was on, uh, just after I got to the base.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: So, uh, I can’t even remember. I think it was a one day trip. Uh, I did a number of trips, uh, in Canada transporting um, our, um, you know troops for the first leg out of Edmonton. Uh, you know we tend to hopscotch them across, uh, until they get in the theater. So anyway, I, I can’t remember which trip it was but uh, I did a number of them out to Edmonton just to, to pick up the troops, bring them to Trenton, and then uh, put a fresh crew on and uh, ‘cause we fly out and back in the same day so pushing the edge of that uh, fresh crew on and continue on after a couple hour delay.

Detective: Okay. Do you know, uh, roughly when that happened?

Russell Williams: That we were on the same crew?

Detective: Eh, the time you met her, the one time there, yeah.

Russell Williams: It was soon after I got to the base so uh, I, I don’t remember exactly but I would say in the first couple of months so August, September.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Um, now you got that email…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …notifying you that something had happened.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Uh, do you have, uh, any kind of, uh, a clear recollection as to how your schedule is going that week?

Russell Williams: Well, I can’t remember what again, what day that, uh, the message came in. Just a second. Um, no, I can’t remember what day, the day of the week, but I, um… Let me think. There was all a bunch of activity, uh, spun up as a result, obviously. [sighs] No, I can’t remember the day of the week. Um, I’m just trying to think through the news reports I read. No. I’m sorry. I can’t remember what day that was but uh…Well, what I, what we learned after the fact was that the, um, MP’s had learnt uh, of her death. I think quite a bit after her body had been discovered.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: So, I think what happened, I’m sorry, just a second. Okay. So, I think, if I remember correctly, the MP’s learned late that evening, I can’t remember when. Obviously, her, her body was discovered. It’s probably in news reports but uh, so they learnt and then they passed it to OPS] so they immediately passed it to me.

Detective: Mm-hm.

Russell Williams: The MP’s work for the [inaudible] operations officers so they go, you know, through their chain of command and then as soon as the, uh, the duty watch officer had that information she advised me…

Detective: Okay, um, so again that…

Russell Williams: … along with some others.

Detective: Right, right. I’m sure it spread like wild fire.

Russell Williams: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Detective: Um, so, that particular week, uh, do you have any recollection, well, for instance, when you got the email, uh…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Do you remember where you were?

Russell Williams: I was at home in Tweed.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams:  Yeah.

Detective: Um, do you remember if that was a week you were, um, reasonably stable in Trenton or had you flown a bit?

Russell Williams: No, I had been in Ottawa. I had been in Ottawa earlier in the week, uh, for some meetings over in uh, in Gatineau for one of the um, [inaudible] C17 acquisitions. I was a project director when I was here in Ottawa for that so just some follow up stuff on that.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: So I had been here, um, at some point in that week. Again, I can’t remember how the days all fell together but um, I seem to remember that I got this word shortly after having come back from Ottawa. I, seems to me it was the same week.

[edited]

Detective: So, if we were to, uh, to you know, do a similar, uh, investigation into your background, is there, is there anything you can think of that anybody may have misinterpreted or anything, uh, in your history, that somebody might say “Russell Williams, uh”….

Russell Williams: Absolutely not.

Detective: …did this?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Be very boring.

Detective: What’s that?

Russell Williams: It’ll be very boring.

Detective: [laughs] alright, ‘Cause and essentially that’s what I’m looking at is that, uh…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Um, uh, you seem like a very intelligent person, and I think you can see how, um, a surprise like that would, uh, certainly…

Russell Williams: Absolutely.

Detective: … send some alarm bells on an…

Russell Williams:  There’s nothing.

Detective: …investigation. Okay?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Um, so the next thing we need to cover off is, uh, well, I’ll just ask you this straight out. Uh, given the types of crimes we’re investigating, uh, do you get much chance to, uh, to watch television shows, CSI, things like that?

Russell Williams: I do watch, uh, I prefer Law and Order but I do watch CSI occasionally, yes.

Detective: Okay, so you have an idea of, obviously the forensic capabilities, things like that, are out there.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: What would you be willing to give me today to help me, uh, move past you in this investigation.

Russell Williams: What, uh, what do you need?

Detective: Well, um, well do you want to supply things like fingerprints, blood samples?

Russell Williams: Sure.

Detective: Things like that.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay. Um, footwear impressions.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, alright. Um, I think that’s what we’re going, we’re going to ask you to do.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Alright, now we have a process we have to go through to do that.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Um, and for the blood sample, I don’t take the blood sample. We have specially trained officers that are trained to do that.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Uh, I’m going to step out and make sure they’re still available.

[edited]

Russell Williams: Can I assume you’re going to be discreet?

Detective: As possible, yeah.

Russell Williams: ‘Cause uh, you know, this would have a very significant impact on the Base if they thought you thought I did this.

Detective: Well, uh [inaudible] Russell, that’s one of the reasons we’re here on a Sunday afternoon.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Um, uh, the uh, military’s certainly been of great assistance uh, to us.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Especially in relation to Miss Comeau’s investigation.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: So that’s certainly one of the things that went into our decision to, to give you a call at home today and see if we could deal with this today.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: So, okay, um…

Russell Williams: ‘Cause it’s tough to undo the rumor mill once it gets started… but I appreciate that.

Detective: Okay.

[edited]

Detective:  Now that you’ve had some time to, uh, and I know we’ve been throwing a lot of things at you here but now you’ve had some time to, to think about things, um, is there anything, uh, that you’re concerned about, uh, that Buccal swab matching in any of those four residences.

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Um, is there, I guess, let me explain what I’m getting at here Russell. Okay, um, this is a significant investigation as you can, as you can…

Russell Williams: Yeah, absolutely.

Detective: Well, imagine…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Um, but, uh, that DNA is going to be uh, significant in our investigation both…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: … you know, quite possibly to help you, quite possibly to help us.

Russell Williams: Yeah, understood.

Detective: I don’t know yet, I don’t know what the result is yet.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Um, and I’ll go back to the example I gave you ‘cause they’re very similar, uh, issue, I think. Um, and you talked about the idea of discretion here…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, uh, you talked about the idea that, uh, um, you know, you, well I think hopefully you appreciate the fact of how we approached you here.

Russell Williams: Yeah, absolutely.

Detective: Um, and essentially, uh, we have no issues with that, okay? Um, we, we talked recently about, you know, the whole idea of any unusual sex acts of your history.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Um, but another thing can often happen in cases like this is that people um, become concerned about uh, um, things like extramarital affairs.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Uh, indiscretions along those lines.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Um, is there any contact that you may have had with any of those four women, um, that you may not want your wife to be aware of? Anything like that, that we should know about to try and uh, explain why if, if your DNA is found?

Russell Williams: [inhales deeply]

Detective: To help us understand why it may be there.

Russell Williams: Absolutely not. [sighs}.

Detective: Can you think of any reason, um, why we would find you DNA in any of those residences?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Let’s, let’s focus on well, for instance [edited] house, I believe.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Let me just check the name there. Make sure I’ve got the right address. Talking about the house that was just a couple doors down from you there on the, in Tweed.

Russell Williams: Couple doors down was…

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: Laurie, I don’t know her last name. I don’t know.

[edited]

Detective: Massicotte.

Russell Williams: I don’t even know what her last name is but uh, there’s uh, uh, the, the, woman down the road three doors down was…

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: … her name was Laurie. I don’t know her last name.

Detective: Alright, I’ll just make sure we’re on the same page here. Mm, yeah. My understanding is she lived at 76 Cozy Cove. Yeah, so she would be the one, the second one, uh, the second incident on you, on your road there.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Couple doors down. Ever been in her house?

Russell Williams: No. We met her once, I think the first summer, um, we were there, so in ’04.

Detective: Okay and that’s what I’m getting at. I, I’d, I, again this is a credibility issue.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Russ, because I, I don’t want to come and see you two weeks from now and say, you know, Russ, uh…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: … our CSI people were in that house uh, are you familiar with how C, uh, DNA works?

Russell Williams: I think broadly, yes, I…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: … would guess so.

Detective: Um, one of the challenges we have in 2010, DNA has become so, um, precise that uh, I guess the best way to explain it is, I can think of 15 years ago when I started in, uh, violent crime investigations…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: … um, for us to get DNA match the sample we had to find was, um, you know, probably would’ve filled half of on of these cups.

Russell Williams: Does it, yeah.

Detective: You know, ‘cause they destroy so much of the uh, the sample and, and, the testing.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Um, essentially DNA has become more and more precise to the point where when you and I walked in this room earlier today…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Uh, we could’ve sat down, talked for 30 seconds…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …walked out. CSI officer could’ve come in three, four days from now…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective:… did some swabs here and he would’ve found your DNA and my DNA…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: …and probably a lot of other people’s DNA.

Russell Williams: Sure.

Detective: Um, little bit gross to think about but essentially, uh, you know as we talk, um, we, you know, a little bit of aspirate comes out of our mouths….

Russell Williams: Yeah, no. I understand.

Detective: … that, uh, contains our bloods or uh, our skin cells contain our DNA…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …and that’s what I’m getting at. If you were ever in Laurie’s residence…

Russell Williams: Um…

Detective: Quite possibly, quite innocently, your DNA could be, uh, in that residence. Has there ever been a time you’ve been in there?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay, um, what about the other lady down the road.

Russell Williams: I hadn’t even heard that name so, no, I don’t, I don’t, actually know who that was.

Detective: Okay. Have you ever visited uh, um, Marie-France Comeau at her residence?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay, alright. Um, so you’re quite positive there’d be no reason why your DNA would be in any…

Russell Williams: Absolutely.

Detective: …of those…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …three locations. Okay, um, did you know Jessica Lloyd, even in passing for any reason?

Russell Williams: No, I didn’t hear her name until it was on the news.

Detective: Okay and the reason I’m asking you that, uh, is because, um, I know you were asked that question Thursday night and sometimes we find and again, this is one of those situations that can sometimes cause us to get into lengthy investigation is somebody that…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: …maybe doesn’t deserve it…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: ..uh, but what, what can happen sometimes is they, you know, somebody gets stopped by the police like you did and they, uh, get asked that question and people, when they’re stopped by the police, they can be nervous, okay?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Um, so they blurt out an answer and they start driving away and they’re all “why’d I do that” because the problem is, is that once they, uh, get asked again, then they feel compelled to maintain that answer for fear that if they change their answers…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …somebody could find that. Do you understand what I’m saying?

Russell Williams: I do.

Detective: Okay, so I want to make sure that’s not happening here. I don’t care what you said to the officers on Thursday.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Last week, um, if there’s any, uh, communication or contact between you and Jessica Lloyd, you seen her picture, right?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Around town.

Russell Williams: Yeah, I saw it.

Detective: Okay, ever seen her before?

Russell Williams: I don’t, no, I would say I have not.

Detective: Okay, alright. Alright, and you mentioned something about uh, doing some renovations at your, uh, at your property in Tweed there. Um, I think you said something earlier about tearing up carpet. Correct me if I’m wrong but…

Russell Williams: Oh yeah.

Detective: Okay, when did all that happen?

Russell Williams: In 2004, or 2005.

Detective: Okay, any recent, uh, renovations?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay, alright.

Detective: Just want to make sure I’m covering all the bases here. Um, okay, what kind of tires do you have on your Pathfinder?

Russell Williams: I think, um, I think they’re Toyo.

Detective: Okay, but do you have a brand name or sorry, uh, the, uh…

Russell Williams: I that, is that.

Detective: Make…

Russell Williams: Um, I don’t, sorry. The, the make is Toyo.

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: I don’t know the model.

Detective: Okay, just, uh, I’ll uh, read this off to you. See if it rings a bell… You ever heard of uh, does Toyo Open Country HTS…

Russell Williams: That’s sounds right.

Detective: Does that make sense?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, when did you have those tires put on your Pathfinder?

Russell Williams: Well, it’s the second version we’ve had of them so, uh, I think it might’ve been this past fall. They replaced other ones we had on the same…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Well, Toyo. I can’t say that they were the same exactly, the same model, but uh, our dealership here in Ottawa says they’re very popular for the Pathfinder so…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: … and they were good. They lasted a long time.

Detective: Alright, um, I’ve had uh, you were talking about the, the whole idea of the MP’s, uh, helping us with our investigation…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: … stuff like this. Uh, you have the same system as we do at our headquarters with the swipe cards…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: One of the things, uh, one of our investigators did is they made a call while I was talking to you there, um, because we’re trying to work through that week of the, uh, 23rd of November.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Um, 23rd being the Monday, uh, 24th being the Tuesday.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Um, what, what they’ve, what they’ve told us is that um, and I want to make sure I get this right, is that, uh, on the 23rd, uh, your swipe card was being used at the base, okay?

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: On Tuesday the 24th there was no use of your swipe card.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Okay, and then on the uh, the following days, uh, the Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, um, there was what appeared to be average activity of…

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: …your swipe card on the base. Does that make sense to you?

Russell Williams: It does but that says that I was in Ottawa on the Tuesday.

Detective: Okay. Do you remember where, uh, in Ottawa you were?

Russell Williams: Yeah, I was in uh, Gatineau with uh, as I said, meeting about the uh, C17.

Detective: Okay, um, now again I want to be fair to you here. We’re going back 2 months.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Um, are you sure that would’ve been the, uh, the day you were in Ottawa.

Russell Williams: Well, only because I wasn’t at the Base.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: So, I, I can’t remember honestly that that’s the day that I had the meeting in Ottawa but uh, if I wasn’t at the Base it was because I was there.

Detective: Okay, now if that is the day you had a meeting in Ottawa, um, do you remember being at the Base on the Monday, uh, the 23rd and swiping your card in and out? Do you remember what you would’ve done that evening to, to, to get to Ottawa for that meeting? Like, would it be, uh…

Russell Williams: I drove to Ottawa in the morning of the day of my meeting. So, if it was the Tuesday then I would’ve left uh, Tweed. It was a very foggy morning.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Uh, that morning and I drove in that morning…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: So, I would not have been at the Base, uh, the day I was in Ottawa ‘cause the meeting started at eight thirty or something.

Detective: Okay, so you leave the Base, you would’ve went home to, to your residence in Tweed.

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: And then you left Tweed in the morning and drove up to your meeting in Ottawa.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, um, you leave the, the meeting in Ottawa, is it a daytime meeting, an evening meeting  or do you remember?

Russell Williams: Uh, yeah it was, uh, uh, a daytime meeting. Finished, I don’t know, mid afternoon or so.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: We had lunch and then uh, finished. I think uh, my wife and I had dinner ‘cause she was here for work and then I headed back.

Detective: Okay, uh, well, that’s, these are the kinds of things I’m trying to draw out here. That’s helpful to us. Um, do you remember where you had dinner?

Russell Williams: [laugh] Uh, well, I don’t remember exactly the restaurant, but it was in Westboro ‘cause that’s where our house was being built at the time so we had dinner. You know, in a restaurant that we would expect to be able to frequent, uh, once the house was finished.

Detective: Okay, do you remember how you paid?

Russell Williams: Uh, one of us would’ve paid by Mastercard, mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, are you sure about that or…

Russell Williams: Pretty sure. That’s normally how we, uh…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: …we pay for meals.

Detective: Alright.

Russell Williams: Can’t remember if it was me or my wife that paid but one of us.

Detective: Okay, and do you remember which restaurant it was again?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay, alright, and you see where I’m getting at, right? I mean the, that can be very helpful for us…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: … because we can track…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: … uh that issue, right?

Russell Williams: Oh yeah.

Detective: And we can put somebody paying for a meal at, at a location.

Russell Williams: No, yeah. I was meeting with, uh, you know, 15 people or so that day so…

Detective: Okay, what time did the meeting end?

Russell Williams: [sighs] I would say between 3 and 4.

Detective: Okay, and um, are you sure that that’s the same day you went with your wife?

Russell Williams: Well, I think so. Yeah, ‘cause she was here and uh, I, I think that was the day we went to this restaurant in Westboro, yes.

Detective: Okay, um, you finished dinner and do you remember what you did that evening?

Russell Williams: I would’ve driven back to Tweed.

Detective: Okay, and you would’ve, now again, uh, I know we’re talking 2 months ago here but do you…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …remember specifically having dinner and then driving back to Tweed or uh, do you remember or are you just guessing here?

Russell Williams: No, I’m not really guessing. I mean, I, I believe that this night at this restaurant it was following the meetings in Ottawa…

Detective: Mm-hm.

Russell Williams: …and I, you know, kissed my wife goodbye and headed back to Tweed…

Detective:  Okay.

Russell Williams: …to go to work the next day.

Detective: Okay, um, alright. The, uh, the tires that you have on your truck right, the reason I want to ask you about that is there is, there, anytime I mean, that you recall, uh, where you were stopped, um, by the officers there…

Russell Williams: Yes.

Detective: …yeah, did they explain to you what the significance…

Russell Williams: Said that was her house.

Detective: That was her house, right.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: So you remember that location?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Do you remember what the crossroad was or…

Russell Williams: I don’t think there was a crossroad. It sort of just, uh, on the south end of 37.

Detective: Okay, um, when you get stopped at that location, has there been a time in the recent, uh, 1 or 2 weeks that uh, your vehicle has uh, left that road for any reason what so ever? Have you driven into a field with your vehicle at all, um, for any reason that you can think of?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay, um, so I want you to rack your brain here. This is important.

Russell Williams: Yeah, yeah.

Detective: So is there anything you can remember doing that uh, you know, would cause you to, to, drive off the road…

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: … at that section of roadway?

Russell Williams: No, that’s my early, uh, that’s the early part of the highway and I’m just heading North. It’s about 30 minutes from there to uh, no, probably 20 from there to my house.

Detective: Okay, um, would it surprise you to know that, uh, when the CSI officers were, uh, looking around her property, uh, that they identified um, a set of tire tracks, uh, to the north of her property, uh, looks as if a vehicle left the road…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: And uh, drove along the north tree line of, of, uh, Jessica Lloyd’s property, okay?

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Um, they took, uh, they, they, examined those tire tracks…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: And uh, they have contacts in the tire business, obviously.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Tire tracks…

Russell Williams: Mm=hm.

Detective: …are a major source of uh, evidence for us.

Russell Williams: Sure.

Detective: Um, shortly after um, this investigation started they identified those tires as the same, uh, tires on your Pathfinder.

Russell Williams: Really?

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Okay, one of the other, uh, one of the other things that they do to try and identify the type vehicle that may have those tires…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Well, they do two things. They talk to witnesses…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, um there was uh, a female police officer that actually drove by that location that evening.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: … and recalls seeing an SUV type vehicle in the field up to the north of Jessica Lloyd’s house, uh, consistent with uh, a Pathfinder.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: It may be consistent with other things but consistent…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …with a Pathfinder. Um, and they, uh, what they also do to try to identify they type of the vehicle is they look at, uh, what they call the wheelbase width.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, ‘cause different vehicles different makes, models, have wheelbase width so…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …they can take those 2 sets of tire tracks, measure the distance between them…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, and determine what the, uh, what the width is.

Russell Williams: Sure.

Detective: And then they can enter that into a vehicle database and it will spit out the types of vehicles.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, um, your Pathfinder’s uh, wheelbase width is very very close to the width of the uh, the, of the tires, uh, that were left in that field.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, um, do you have any recollection at all of being off the road?

Russell Williams: No, I was not off the road, no.

Detective: Okay, alright Russell. [sighs] Um, is there anything you can think of… Let’s go talk about Marie-Fances Comeau for a minute, okay?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Is there any reason at all you can think of that during our investigation, obviously we’re searching, uh, computers, things like Blackberries, right?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Electronic devices, uh, looking through houses for things that are in handwriting, written notes, diaries, things like that.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective:  Um, and I’m not at liberty to tell you what the content was but is there any reason at all that you can think of why Marie-France Comeau would’ve specifically referenced you in some of her, uh, in some of her writings?

Russell Williams: Not at all.

Detective: No?

Russell Williams: No, absolutely not. [laughs]

Detective: Okay, is there anything that she ever said to you that lead you to believe that there may have been something, uh, more than a passing interest with her towards you?

Russell Williams: Not at all, no. We spent, you know, one flight together talking. I’d go back occasionally and talk. No, I, uh, if that’s the case, that’s uh, that’s very surprising.

Detective: Okay, alright. Um, do you have any questions for me right now?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay, I’m just going to step out and see how things are going, okay?

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: I mean, it is a Sunday but there’s probably 60, 70 people working on this file so there’s…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: …a lot of things happening.

Russell Williams: Sure.

Detective: Uh, so let me go out and see what’s happening and then I’ll come back in and we’ll, we’ll hopefully, continue, okay?

[edited]

Detective: I told you when I came in here, uh, that I’ll treat you with respect and I’ve asked you to do the same for me. Um, we talked about the whole idea of how we’ve uh, uh, approached you here, okay. Uh, trying to be as discreet as possible.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, but the problem is Russell, is every time I walk out of this room there’s another issue that comes up, okay, and it’s not issues that point away from you. It’s issues that point at you, okay? And I want, I want you to see what I mean.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Alright, this is the footwear impression of the person who approached the rear of Jessica Lloyd’s house…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: …on the evening of the 28th and 29th of January.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, alright. Now I want you to keep in mind that this is slightly smaller, okay, than scale, okay?

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Alright, that’s not to scale. That’s, that footwear is actually bigger.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: If you look here on the ruler you’ll see that. Uh, one inch is just slightly smaller than an actual inch.

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Alright, but this is the way it prints off on your computer.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: I’ll move this over so you can see what I mean, Alright? Essentially when you’re dealing with footwear impressions, um, we have a gentleman on the OPP who’s uh, basically world-renowned, uh, his name is John Norman…

Russell Williams: Mm.

Detective: …and essentially with footwear impressions, uh, you’re in a situation where you’re, you’re pretty much in the area of, uh, fingerprints.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, and essentially what we’re talking about here is when, especially when you start adding other pieces of, of, uh, information…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: …that, uh, support, uh, an investigative position.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, this is a photocopy of the boot that uh, you took off your foot…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …just a little while ago.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, now I’m not an expert in footwear impressions. I rely on the experts. Footwear impressions are very much like, uh, like fingerprint comparisons, Okay? You take a look at this print and again. This one print…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: …this person walked through. There’s several different prints to compare.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: So, we’re going to get features off of one print to compare features off another print to compare.

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: These are identical, okay? Your vehicle drove up the side of Jessica Lloyd’s house. Your boots walked to the back of Jessica Lloyd’s house on the evening of the 28th and 29th of January, okay? You want discretion, we need to have some honesty, okay? Because this is, this is getting out of control really fast, Russel, okay? Really, really fast.

Russell Williams: [sniffs] hmm [sighs]

Detective: This is getting beyond my control, alright? I came in here a few hours ago and I called you the way I called you today because I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: …but you and I both know you were at Jessica Lloyd’s house and I need to know why.

Russell Williams: Well, I don’t know what to say, it’s, um…

Detective: Well, you need to explain it because this is the other problem we’re having Russell, okay? Again, these decisions are made by me…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Right now there’s warrant being executed at your residence in Ottawa, okay? So your wife now knows what’s going on. There’s a search warrant being executed at the, your residence in Tweed and your vehicles been seized, okay? You and I both know they’re going to find evidence that links you to these situations, okay? You and I both know that the unknown offender, male DNA on Marie-France Comeau’s body is going to be matched to you, quite possible before the evening’s over, okay? This is a major investigation. The Center of Forensic Science is on call 24 hours a day helping us with this.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Your opportunity to take some control here and to have some explanation that anybody’s going to believe is quickly expiring.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, we’re applying, the investigators now applying for a warrant to search your office. Uh, these aren’t decisions that we can say yes or no to. This is the practical steps…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: …in an investigation like this.

Russell Williams: [sighs]

Detective: And Russell… Russell…

Russell Williams:  Mm-hm.

Detective: Listen to me for a second, okay? When that evidence comes in and that DNA match, when that phone rings, and somebody knocks on this door…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Your credibility is gone, okay, because this is how credibility works, alright, and I know you’re an intelligent person and you probably don’t need to hear this explanation but I also know your minds racing right now, okay, cause I sat across from a lot of people in your position over the years…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: …okay, the bottom line is, is that as soon as we get that piece of evidence that solidifies it…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: …DNA. Okay, as soon as the expert in footwear impressions, the expert in tire impressions calls me “yes, yes I examined those and they’re…”

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: “…a match”

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: It’s all over because as soon as that happens, where’s your credibility? Where’s your believability? You’re just another, um, and again, don’t take this the wrong way, okay, but you can see if you step outside this room in your mind, and imagine how people are going to view you, okay? If the truth comes out after the clear evidence is presented to you when you finally go “okay, I’m screwed now”…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

[edited]

Detective: What are we going to do, Russell? You know there’s only one option. What are you, what are you, what other option is there?

Russell Williams: What’s the option?

Detective: Well, I don’t think you want the cold blooded psychopath option. I might be wrong eh, ‘cause don’t get me wrong, I’ve met guys who actually kind of enjoyed the notoriety, got off on it. Got off on having that label. Bernardo being one of them. I don’t see that in you. If I saw that in you, I wouldn’t even be back in here talking to you, quite frankly, but maybe I’m wrong. Maybe you got me fooled. I don’t know. This is over and it can have a, a bad ending where Jessica’s parents continue wondering where her daughters lying.

Russell Williams: [sigh]

Detective: I don’t know. I mean, obviously there’s a huge search still under way and it will continue, it will continue until her body’s found. That might even happen tonight for all I know. Once that happens, then I don’t know what other cards you would have to play. What are you going to do?

[silence]

Detective: Russell, what are we going to do?

Russell Williams: Call me Russ, please.

Detective: Okay, what are we going to do, Russ?

Russell Williams: [sigh]

Detective: Is Jessica somewhere we can find her easily? Like is it something where I can make a call and tell somebody to go to a location they’re going to find her or is this something where we have to go and, and, um, take a walk…

Russell Williams: [sigh]

Detective: Which direction are we heading in here?

[Silence]

Detective: Russ, maybe, maybe this would help, can you tell me what the issue is you’re struggling with?

[Silence]

Detective: What’s the issue you’re struggling with?

Russell Williams: [sigh]

[Silence]

Russell Williams: [sniff] It’s hard to believe this is happening.

Detective: Why is that?

[Silence]

Detective: Why is it hard to believe?

Russell Williams: [sigh]

[Silence]

Russell Williams: Um, it’s just, it’s just hard to believe. [sigh]

Detective: Who’s decision was it, when we’re going to find out the answer to this anyway but who’s decision was it to issue the, uh, directive to the base personnel that nobody had to speak to the police and to seek legal counsel before they were questioned. Because my unders…

Russell Williams: I don’t think that was issued.

Detective: My understand that direction came from somebody that reports to you. What do you think they’re going to say?

Russell Williams: Well…

Detective: Russ…

Russell Williams: No, no.

Detective: What do you think they’re going to say, alright? Uh, and lets, lets step back for a second here, okay? I really don’t think it benefits you or makes you look any better to start debating the little issues.

Russell Williams: No, no but that is news to me.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: I have a legal officer that reports to me…

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: …who may have given that direction…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: …but that’s the first time I’ve heard it, if that’s true, that’s the first time I’ve heard that.

Detective: Alright, and that may be the case but how does it look? We’re not even dealing with something that’s really, uh, evidence cause it’s not needed, I mean…

Russell Williams: No, no but that…

Detective: We’ve got DNA and all this over stuff that’s not even needed.

Russell Williams: What was the direction?

Detective: I don’t recall but it was something along the lines of, uh, telling the people on the base that they didn’t, uh, they weren’t required legally to speak with the police and they should seek legal counsel before the decide to speak but…

Russell Williams: Well if that was, if that was actually said, it would not have been to the base at large. It, it may have been to the individual they, uh, the boyfriend who is the suspect.

Detective: Well, I understanding it went out to all personnel.

Russell Williams: No, absolutely not.

Detective: Maybe, maybe, no, only on your command, I don’t know.

Russell Williams: It didn’t.

Detective: Right, okay. That’s fine.

Russell Williams: I did never see it.

Detective: That’s fine. Now let’s get back to the issue.

[edited]

Detective: What’s that?

Russell Williams: When you talk about perception my only 2 immediate concerns from a perception perspective are what my wife must be going through right now…

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: … and the impact this is going to have on the Canadian Forces.

[edited]

Detective: Where do we go? Russ, is there anything you want from me? Is there anything you want me to explain? Is there something missing you’re struggling with that I can shed some light on for you?

Russell Williams: [sigh] No, I’m struggling with how upset my wife is right now.

[edited]

Detective: Russ, what are you looking for?

Russell Williams: I’m concerned that they’re tearing apart my wife’s brand new house.

Detective: So am I but if nobody tells them what’s there and what’s not, they don’t have no choice.

[edited]

Detective: Computers have been brought to Microsoft in California. They’ll be, they’ll be picking apart, you can’t erase things from computers, it doesn’t happen, I’m sure you’ve seen that, I’m sure that’s pretty common knowledge these days. It just doesn’t happen. They sell programs that uh, to try and help people clean their computers and stuff and our guys are pulling that stuff out all the time. The FBI’s pulling that stuff out all the time. This investigation will end up costing no less than ten million dollars, easy and they will say no to nothing. Any requests this major case manager makes on this case, they’ve already been told it’s approved, don’t even bother asking. So, what I am doing, Russ, I put my best foot forward here for you, bud, I really have. I don’t, I don’t know what else to do to, to make, make you understand the impact of what’s happening here. Do we talk?

Russell Williams: I want to um, minimize the impact on my wife.

Detective: So, do I.

Russell Williams: So how do we do that?

Detective: Well, you start by telling the truth.

[Silence]

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: Alright, so where is she?

[Silence]

Russell Williams: Got a map?

Detective: Um, is she close to where she lives? I got maps of that general area. Which town is she near? Why don’t we start there?

Russell Williams: I’m not sure but if you give me a map of um, that covers Kaladar down to the highway and over to Tweed and south, I’ll show you.

Detective: Let me see what I got here. I might have something. Is she inside, outside?

Russell Williams: Outside.

[Silence]

Detective: That’s probably the biggest area that I have there, Russ.

Russell Williams: You need more. You need a real map.

Detective: So, where am I going on the, on here to get to her.

Russell Williams: [sighs] in this block here.

Detective: Okay, so you’re pointing to…

Russell Williams: You need a, a detailed map of that area and I’ll show you where she is…

Detective: Okay, is she close to a road?

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: Alright, um, is this something where, is she, is she buried or is she…

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: … Somewhere where if you walk there you would, you would fairly easily see her?

Russell Williams: It’s here.

Detective: Okay so she’s south of 7, uh, east of Tweed.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: West of 41.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: And uh, what’s this road here?

Russell Williams: I’m not sure.

Detective: Neither am I, okay. I’ll be right back, okay? Do you want any water or anything?

Russell Williams: Sure.

Detective: Okay, I’ll be right back. How long has she been there for?

Russell Williams: A little over a week.

Detective: Was it fairly quick from the time she left?

Russell Williams: Friday night.

Detective: Friday night.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: So, where does she go between Thursday night and Friday night?

Russell Williams: In Tweed.

Detective: With you?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: How long was she alive for?

Russell Williams: Almost 24 hours. Not quite.

Detective: Okay. Russ, you’re doing the right thing here, okay?

Russell Williams: Well, again, my interest is in, uh, into my, my wife’s life a little easier.

Detective: Yeah, okay.

Russell Williams: And with her family as well.

Detective: Oh, we share that interest.

Russell Williams: But there’s no, uh, your time in Ottawa is wasted really. I’ll tell you where the memory stick cards are.

Detective: Where are they?

Russell Williams: They’re in the house there but…

Detective: In Ottawa.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Whereabouts?

Russell Williams: Um, some in the camera bag, which they would have found in my office.

Detective: Mm-hm.

Russell Williams: And in the, when you walk into the office, on the left side, there’s a um, uh, desk, uh, drawers…

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: …set of drawers like a filing cabinet, wooden, Ikea, in one of the top two drawers and there’s a plastic divider…

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: …and there’s uh, inside there, there are 2 memory cards.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Which are blank but I’m sure they can be re, uh…

Detective: And who’s images are on those cards?

Russell Williams: Uh, well, the, I have erased them but I expect, uh, you’ll be able to draw images of uh, Jessica and I.

Detective: What about Marie?

Russell Williams: There may be images on there as well.

Detective: And the 2 women from September?

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: Okay, do you have those images stored anywhere else?

Russell Williams: Yep, they’re um, 2 hard drives in the house in Ottawa. I can draw you a little picture of it.

Detective: Sure. Do you want to do that now while I’m…

Russell Williams: Sure.

Detective: …out getting the map, okay?

Russell Williams: Okay. [clears throat]

Detective: Want anything to eat or anything? I’ll leave that right there, okay?

Russell Williams: Thank you. But I do want to talk to you again.

Detective: That’s the plan, okay? I’ll be right back.

Russell Williams: Okay.

[Door shuts]

Detective: How you making out there? How you making out?

Russell Williams: Alright.

[Door shuts]

Detective: I got somebody running around looking for an actual map but uh, I did the same thing with uh, the Google maps except blew them up a little bit more, um, this is the, this is the biggest of the area. I’m hoping this might have better parameters for you. There’s Tweed.

Russell Williams: Point 7, a kilometer from this intersection on this side of the road.

Detective: And what road is that? Cary?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: South of, can’t read that word, uh, East Hungerford.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Does that make sense? Oh, there it is, there. Okay.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: How far off the road is she?

Russell Williams: 40 feet.

Detective: Is she bur.., is she covered with anything?

Russell Williams: No, she’s wrapped up.

Detective: In what?

Russell Williams: And she’s on the surface. Just a grey something or other cover.

Detective: Okay, very obvious question I’m going to have for you is when they go there, and they’ll be there shortly…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm…

Detective: They’re going to find her?

Russell Williams: Oh yeah.

[edited]

Detective: Okay, I’ll be right back. You look like you want to say something.

Russell Williams: Just that the, this place, my wife, it’s been a dream for her, for a better part of the year so I’m keen to get them what they need and so they can leave her alone.

Detective: Okay, we, uh, we’ll going to do our best to keep it as low key as possible, okay?

[edited]

Detective: Okay, well, what do you want to talk about?

Russell Williams: I guess it’s, uh, pretty wide open now, eh?

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: What do you want to know?

Detective: Well, do you want to work forwards or backwards?

Russell Williams: It doesn’t matter.

Detective: Why don’t we start with Jessica?

Russell Williams: Okay.

Detective: How does that start for you?

Russell Williams: Um, well, I saw her in her house on her treadmill Wednesday night, I guess. And I noticed she wasn’t, uh, there Thursday so I got in the house to look around. Then, um, then I left. Noticed she’d come home, so I went back in through the back patio door while she was, uh, sleeping.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: So, I woke her up. Didn’t, um, didn’t hit her. I only hit her once, Friday night. [sigh]

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Well, so I raped her in, uh, in her house and then I took her to the car and took her to Tweed and um, spent the day in Tweed and I hit her, um, as we were walking. She thought we were leaving. I hit her on the back of the head.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: You want to know anything particular?

Detective: Well, um, what did the hit on the back of the head do?

Russell Williams: Well, I was surprised it, uh, her, her skull gave way. She was there and immediately unconscious, then I strangled her.

Detective: Okay, what did you hit her with?

Russell Williams: A flash light.

Detective: Okay, in the house or outside the house?

Russell Williams: In the house. Yeah, they’ll find signs of that.

Detective: Where in the house did this happen?

Russell Williams: In the main portion, just in front of the fireplace.

Detective: What do you mean they’ll find signs of it?

Russell Williams: Well, there’s quite a bit of blood I hadn’t expected. I expected to knock her out but obviously generated a lot of blood.

Detective: What did she bleed onto?

Russell Williams: The floor. It’s just a tile floor.

Detective: Okay. Did you clean it up or did you…

Russell Williams: I wiped it up. I know it’ll be, uh, easily spotted.

Detective: What makes you think that? Like, if I walked in that house…

Russell Williams: Well, you wouldn’t notice.

Detective: …right now, would I see it?

Russell Williams: You wouldn’t see it, not at all but uh, you know, the right science will…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Uh, will show it, I’m sure.

Detective: Okay, um, so when that happened was she, did she have clothes on or was she naked?

Russell Williams: Yeah, she was dressed.

Detective: Okay, so when we find her, is she going to have those clothes on, too?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Alright, um, okay, Marie-France, uh, Comeau.

Russell Williams: There was an open window in the basement of her, uh, her house. When she was away I went in there, um, a couple nights before, uh, she came home, looked around. I went back in there, uh, late at night when she was at home. Was on the phone in her bedroom. She actually discovered me in the basement. She was trying to get her cat to come upstairs and the cat was in the basement. It seen me and was fixated on me in the corner. She couldn’t get the cat up, so, uh, she came downstairs. Trying to get the cat and uh, I’m not quite sure why she uh, came over to me. I guess the cat was staring at me and she was wondering why the cat was staring at. The lights were on. So when she spotted me, I, uh, had the same flashlight. I subdued her, tied her up, brought her upstairs. And um, strangled her later in the morning. Well, more suffocated her with some tape [sigh] left her there.

Detective: How do you subdue her, when you said subdue her in the basement, what did you do?

Russell Williams: Well, I had the same flashlight and um, you know it was, she, she saw me right away so it was just, uh, hit her a couple of times and around her head trying and knock her out. Didn’t but um, was bleeding a little bit. Uh, eventually, um, after a struggle, subdued her.

Detective: Okay, any blood from that struggle?

Russell Williams: Oh, yeah. No, not, not a whole bunch but uh, the flashlight did break her skin a couple of times.

Detective: Okay. What area of the basement did that take place in?

Russell Williams: I was hiding behind the furnace, so she spotted me right there.

Detective: Okay, did she recognize you?

Russell Williams: No, I had, uh, stuff on my face.

Detective: Um, so you go upstairs, and you said, uh, she suffocated…

Russell Williams: Well, I suffocated her. I put tape on her, um, I put tape on her mouth and then I put tape on her, uh, nose and held it there so she couldn’t breathe.

Detective: Okay, um, what kind of tape was it?

Russell Williams: Duct tape.

Detective: What happened to it?

Russell Williams: Uh, well, I took it with me and uh, can’t, can’t remember what actually I did with that tape but uh, probably threw it in the garbage.

Detective: Did you use tape for any other purposes?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay, um, did she ever recognize you through this whole incident?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: What did you say you had on your face?

Russell Williams: I had, just a, a cover for my head. Just to, you know, uh, a sports, you know, pull over type like just a little cap kind of thing.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Just a [inaudible] or something and a um, just a headband over my nose and mouth so it covered most everything but my eyes.

Detective: Okay, um, now this flashlight, where is that now?

Russell Williams: In Tweed.

Detective: In the house?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: What kind of flashlight is it?

Russell Williams: It’s a red, uh, 3 double D, um, I’m not sure what brand it is but it’s metal, you know, or it’s aluminum. It’s like a big, um, I can’t remember what brand [inaudible] flashlights are [inaudible] yeah, it’s a big bigger one of those.

Detective: Um, did you take anything out of Marie-Frances’ house or Jessica Lloyd’s house?

Russell Williams: Uh, yeah, some of their, uh, underwear.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: That’s all.

Detective: And where’s that?

Russell Williams: Um, it’s in some boxes in the basement here in Ottawa in that wreck room. We just moved in so there’s boxes everywhere so on the same side as the furnace room. It’s sort of the back against the wall.

Detective: Okay, what do the boxes look like?

Russell Williams: Um, I think one’s a scanner, the box for my scanner.

Detective: Mm-hm.

Russell Williams: They’re, they’re all right next to each other so a quick look through the boxes there, you’ll find them.

Detective: How much underwear is in those boxes?

Russell Williams: Um, well, probably 60 pieces or so total.

Detective: All women’s?

Russell Williams: Yeah. 60 pieces of their’s.

Detective: Of who’s?

Russell Williams: Of Jessica’s and uh, Marie-France.

Detective: So, you took 60 pieces from between the 2 of them?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: I think so.

Detective: Alright, uh, and they’re in a like, when you talk about scanners, is it a computer scanner box?

Russell Williams: My computer scanner is up in the office and it’s box is down in the basement, so…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: …it’s inside that box.

Detective: Is any of the underwear in those boxes belong to anyone other than Marie-France or uh, or Jessica?

Russell Williams: Um, yeah, there’s some from each of the other 2 women.

Detective: Okay, uh, why don’t we talk about those 2 women?

Russell Williams: Mm.

Detective: Um, so the first one happened on the 16th and I don’t know why I can’t recall their names but uh [edited] the lady that was, uh, the closer to you.

Russell Williams: No, Laurie was closer to me.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: So the first uh, the first one [edited]

Detective: Mm-hm.

Russell Williams: So the first, uh, the first one of them, I just spotted her from her boat actually and I got into the house while she was uh, asleep. Noticed that she was alone and uh, I just hit her with my hand while she was sleeping. Subdued her mostly just my weight on top of her, um, had her, took off her pajamas, took some pictures, took some of her underwear and left.

Detective: And the other woman?

Russell Williams: Same kind of deal, I went through the back of the house. She was sleeping in her, um, not in her bedroom but her, you know, in front of the TV, very much the same story.

Detective: Anything different about that story? I mean, uh, pretty much the same story, exactly the same story are 2 different things, right?

Russell Williams: Yeah, no. Uh, not much difference at all. Um, I did have the flashlight, that time. I hit her with the flashlight and thinking it would knock her out. Didn’t, so I subdued her with my weight, took off her clothes, took some pictures and left.

Detective: Why do you think these things happen?

Russell Williams: [sniff] I don’t know… I don’t know.

Detective: Have you spent much time thinking about that?

Russell Williams: About why?

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: Yeah but I don’t know the answers and I’m pretty sure the answers don’t matter.

Detective: Well, let me, let me ask you this, did you like or dislike these women?

Russell Williams: I didn’t know any of them.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: I had met Marie-France that one time in the, in our airplane.

Detective: Okay, now, uh, I guess what I’m getting at, when you’re going through these things, um, are you in, well let me, Jessica cause she was there with you for the whole day, right?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: What kind of feelings were you experiencing while you were with her that day?

Russell Williams: [sigh] Uh, she’s a very nice girl.

Detective: Can you tell me why you killed her, Russ? Do you know why you killed her?

[edited]

Russell Williams: Well, I think I killed her because I knew that, uh, her story would be recognized.

Detective: Her story would be recognized? How do you mean?

Russell Williams: Well, ‘cause she knew I was taking pictures.

Detective: Mm-hm.

Russell Williams: So, because of the, um, 2, um, stories in Tweed that would have been a fairly…

Detective: Yeah.

Russell Williams: Been quite obvious.

Detective: So, if you didn’t take pictures what would you have done with her?

Russell Williams: I don’t know.

Detective: I mean, she’s at your house, right? Um, well, let me ask you this, us it uh, 2 lived right and 2 died, what’s the difference in your mind between…

Russell Williams: Well, the um, yeah. Would be attention the first 2 got. Um, wasn’t very much focused on obviously, or for obvious reasons, uh, the pictures I took so anybody else telling stories about pictures, right, would have been [sniff] a fairly straight line.

Detective: Okay, but when, when this would happen with Marie-France, was, was, did you, uh, believe that you already a suspect for what happened in Tweed?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: So why, what were you concerned about?

Russell Williams: Well, because um, I was pretty sure that, uh, you know, that she was serving military, right?

Detective: Mm-hm.

Russell Williams: It would have been, uh, it would have been difficult for investigators to ignore that connection.

Detective: Okay, yeah. Makes sense, um, lets go back to Jessica then. Okay, um, see her on the Wednesday night, right? on her treadmill.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: How do you see her?

Russell Williams: She was in the basement window wide open, on a treadmill, as I drove by.

Detective: Okay. Do you go, did you stop to look at the house or how, how does that catch your eye as you drive by?

Russell Williams: Um, I was looking to see who was, who was where, don’t know that area very well so I was keeping my eyes open.

Detective: Okay, so you spot her on Wednesday?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Um, do you just keep on going or did you stop and take a closer look that night or anything?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: That night or anything?

Russell Williams: No, I kept going.

Detective: Okay, and you went back on Thursday night, right?

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: So back on the Thursday night, and you went, you went into the house before she came home?

Russell Williams: [cough] Yeah, she was out, yeah. Uh, don’t need those. tm, yeah, she was out, got in through the kitchen window. It was unlocked. Everything else was locked.

Detective: Okay, so you’re in there doing what?

Russell Williams: Looking around, looking around to see who lived in the house, it was just her.

Detective: Okay, and then what do you do?

Russell Williams: Well, I left the house and uh, and then she came home, hadn’t been in the house very long. So, I watched for a little bit to see if she as alone. She was. And I went in when she went back to sleep, went to, went to sleep.

Detective: Okay, so you go in, she’s sleeping and what do you do?

Russell Williams: [sighs] well, I, I snuck up to the side of her bed, expecting to uh, try to knock her out. She woke up but she did as I said. I didn’t hit her.

Detective: What did you say?

Russell Williams: I said lie down on your tummy.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: She did and I tied her up.

Detective: What did you tie her up with?

Russell Williams: Some, uh, rope that I brought.

Detective: So she’s on her stomach, how are you tying her up?

Russell Williams: Just tying her, her hands behind her back.

Detective: Okay, she got clothes on at that point?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: What kind of clothes?

Russell Williams: Sweats.

Detective: Alright, tie her hands behind her back and then, then what happens?

Russell Williams: I went and took her clothes off. [sigh]

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: [sigh]

Detective: And then what happened?

Russell Williams: I raped her.

Detective: Now rape can mean a lot of different things. What kind of sexual act took place?

Russell Williams: Just, uh, vaginal and oral.

Detective: Okay. Oral, who was preforming the oral sex?

Russell Williams: Uh, me on her and her on me.

Detective: Okay. Any condoms used or anything like that?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: No. So correct me if I’m wrong, vaginal intercourse, her preforming oral sex on you and you preforming oral sex on her?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Do you remember what order those occurred in?

Russell Williams: Yeah. I, um, started with the oral sex, then I raped her. Then later on I made her preform oral sex on me.

Detective: Okay. Anything, any kind of conversation happening when this is going on?

Russell Williams: Yeah, a little bit.

Detective: What was being said?

Russell Williams: Well, I threatened her before she, before I had her perform oral sex.

Detective: What did you say?

Russell Williams: Well, I put a, um, zip tie around her neck and said, uh, that I would pull it if I didn’t like what she was doing.

Detective: Okay. So, she did what you told her to do?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Any issues there? Any reason to pull it?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: So, do you remember if you ejaculated at that point? Or at any point.

Russell Williams: Uh, not at that point but later on.

Detective: Okay, so the oral sex finishes. Then what happens next?

Russell Williams: [deeply inhales] Well, I continued, um, to rape her and I had her put on some of her underwear. Took some pictures. Lots of pictures. And then uh, got her dressed. Walked back to the truck.

Detective: Okay, at what point did you decide that she was going to leave with you?

Russell Williams:  I’m not sure. That wasn’t uh, necessarily always the plan but at some point uh, I was there for [sigh] be 3, 3 hours, 3 and a bit.

Detective: Okay, um, do you remember the conversation about leaving? Was there any? Did she say anything about that or what was she saying…?

Russell Williams: Well.

Detective: …to you?

Russell Williams: She was um, certainly cooperative.

Detective: Okay, and cooperative can mean a number of different things. Was she excited about leaving with you, and I don’t want to be sarcastic but um…

Russell Williams: No, no. She just didn’t put up too much of a fuss.

Detective: Did she try and negotiate with you at all or…

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: What did she say?

[edited]

Russell Williams: Well, I told her that I would let her go later on.

Detective: Okay, so when you take her out of your house is she is still bound or…

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: How, how is that done?

Russell Williams: Just, uh, hands behind her back.

Detective: Okay, what about her feet? Anything there?

Russell Williams: No, she was walking freely.

Detective: Okay, barefoot or…

Russell Williams: No, no. She had those brown suede shoes on that had been reported.

Detective: Okay, so where does she sit in your truck when you get to your truck?

Russell Williams: Front seat, passenger side.

Detective: Okay and where do you go?

Russell Williams: Straight to Tweed.

Detective: Straight to your house in Tweed or straight…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …to just the town.

Russell Williams: Straight to the house.

Detective: No stops anywhere?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay, what time, do you remember what time you arrive there?

Russell Williams: I don’t exactly but I’d say between four thirty and five thirty.

Detective: Okay, alright. And you where, uh, when you were first there before she came home, do you remember did anybody come to the door at all when you were in the house?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Now I think somebody had come home, somebody had come to the house just before she did ‘cause I thought it was her but then they left. I was outside at the time.

Detective: Did you see who that person was or what kind of vehicle they were…

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: …in or anything.

Russell Williams: No, saw the lights and I seen it was her and then all of a sudden they left so I don’t know what happened.

Detective: Okay, um, where were you when that first vehicle pulled up?

Russell Williams: In the back, backyard.

Detective: Okay, so you didn’t have a view of the vehicle, you could just tell that there was a vehicle there.

Russell Williams: I just saw lights.

Detective: …is that fair?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, so you get home about four thirty, five, you said.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, and then what happens?

Russell Williams: Uh, well, she, uh, she had to go to the bathroom and uh, had a quick shower. Washed her and then we went into my bedroom and went to sleep a little bit. She was tied up.

Detective: How was she tied up at that point?

Russell Williams: Just hands behind her back. I had put um, tape over her eyes from the beginning so that’s what she had.

Detective: Okay, when they find her is that tape going to be there or is it ever removed?

Russell Williams: No, I removed it.

Detective: Okay, what kind of tape?

Russell Williams: Duct tape.

Detective: Alright, the duct tape that you used, where is uh, where’s that roll?

Russell Williams: Uh, it’s all done. It, uh, I used it to, I used the rest of it to, uh, bind her, bind her body.

Detective: So, by all gone is it, is it, with the body now?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, so you said who went to sleep when you came home, you had a, or she had a shower?

Russell Williams: Well, we both went in. I washed her off after she’d been to the bathroom. We both went to sleep but she was tied up and I tied the rope, you know, so I could fall asleep a little bit and she could move without waking me up.

Detective: I’m trying to picture how that would be. So, the rope’s tied to what on her?

Russell Williams: It’s tied in her hands.

Detective: Behind…

Russell Williams: Behind her back.

Detective: Okay and…

Russell Williams: And then the rope just wrapped around me a couple times so there was no slack.

Detective: Okay, do you remember how long you slept for?

Russell Williams: Not long, maybe a couple hours.

Detective: Do you know if she slept?

Russell Williams: I don’t know.

Detective: Okay, so you wake up and…

Russell Williams: It wasn’t, I mean, we were up and down, up and down, so it wasn’t 2 hours straight. It was 2 hours in bed but there wasn’t much sleep. Just lying there probably.

Detective: So, you waited or you get up from that and what happens.

Russell Williams: [deeply inhales] Um, she had a seizure actually. She felt it coming on and um, cause she’d had some before, lasted, uh, well quite a while. Got her dressed into the, uh, family room and anyway she um, she recovered. She got, uh, you know, was obviously stress but uh, you know, probably, probably went on for about 15 minutes, part of it.

Detective: So…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: How do you know she had them before?

Russell Williams: She told me. [sighs]

Detective: Did she tell you why she gets them?

Russell Williams: Well, she suggested it was stress, yeah, so she felt herself…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: … you know, start to tense up and said she thought she was going to have a seizure. Yeah, so, she was [tapping] she was, it’s you know, convulsions is what she was having.

Detective: Okay so she’s recovered from that.

Russell Williams: Yep, she um, like I stayed with her and talked her through it and made sure she didn’t bite her tongue.

Detective: Okay and then what happened?

Russell Williams: [inhales deeply]  Oh, then we had a little lie down right there because she was obviously exhausted. Put a cover over her and went to sleep, probably for an hour or so.

[silence]

Russell Williams: [sigh] and I told her um, earlier that before I let her go I wanted to take some pictures of her in her underwear and uh, have sex with her so after she’d had uh, a rest for an hour or so I had her uh, put on a number of different outfits she had. [deeply inhales]

Detective: I’m sorry.

Russell Williams: Put on a, a number of, you know, pairs of panties, bras, that she had that I’d taken.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: From the house. So, she put those on and I took pictures.

Detective: Okay, are you in any of these pictures?

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: Mm. What kind of images, what kind of images are you in?

Russell Williams: [sigh] Um, well, I’m with her, there’s on the hard drives. You’ll see, there’s video as well so there was a video of the, um, you know, almost 4 hours, I guess.

Detective: Of what?

Russell Williams: Well, of, uh, initially at her place of uh, me raping her [sign] and then, uh, yeah, I was running the video and then taking still pictures, so the video pretty much covers everything.

Detective: Did you use video at other places?

Russell Williams: Uh, at, uh, Marie-France’s as well.

Detective: And uh, is that video on the hard drives?

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: Same type of, uh, activity?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Well, I didn’t have her put on any stuff.

Detective: Okay, so Jessica poses for these pictures and there’s videos and um, and then what happens?

Russell Williams: Then um, I got her dressed. She thought she was leaving. Had a bite to eat, fruit, and then as we were walking out, uh, I struck her on the back of the head.

Detective: Okay, when did you decide to do that?

Russell Williams: Well, I was, uh, pretty sure that I wasn’t going to let her leave but um, you know the idea of striking her on the head was developed in the afternoon.

Detective: And what was the strike supposed to accomplish, in your mind? What was the intent of doing that?

Russell Williams: Well, I thought I would be able to knock her out and then I was, I was going to strangle her.

Detective: Okay, so when you actually do strike her, what, what’s the result?

Russell Williams: Her skull gave way a little bit, felt like. And there was a lot of blood so I think that’s what happened, she was immediately unconscious. And then I, um, strangled her.

Detective: How did you strangle her?

Russell Williams: Uh, the same rope. Just put it around her neck…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: …while she was unconscious.

Detective: And what happened to the zip tie that was around her neck earlier?

Russell Williams: I took it off, uh, around then I guess.

Detective: Did you take it off before you put the rope around her neck or, or after or do you remember?

Russell Williams: [inhales deeply] After she was dead. [sigh]

Detective: Oh, okay, so the zip tie was around her neck while you used the rope?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, did you leave the rope around her neck?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay, and how did you know she was dead?

Russell Williams: [deeply inhales] She, um, well her body stopped moving.

Detective: Okay, so what did you do after that?

Russell Williams: I, uh, I bound her up into a, it was fetal position. And uh, cleaned up the floor.

Detective: Now, when you say you bound her up, is that you referring to the duct tape that you talked about earlier?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, so then what did you do?

Russell Williams: I um, put her in the garage. It was very cold, and then I went in to the Base.

Detective: Okay, why did you go to the Base?

Russell Williams: Pardon me?

Detective: Why did you go to the Base?

Russell Williams: Because I was flying early the next morning.

Detective: Okay, so what time did you leave to go to the Base?

Russell Williams: When I told you, about between 9 or 10 or so.

Detective: On Friday night?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, so you fly and…

Russell Williams: [sigh] Then I drove home to Ottawa.

Detective: So which night would you…

Russell Williams: Saturday night.

Detective: So, you land uh, and uh, what time are you landing?

Russell Williams: Six, six thirty.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Saturday night.

Detective: Did you go by the house in Tweed on your way no Ottawa or?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Um, so you drove straight home to Ottawa. What time did you get there at, do you remember?

Russell Williams: Sometime before midnight and I can’t quite remember but uh, I think I went in the office first, did some work, so I think I got home to Ottawa, uh, just before midnight. Something like that, I think. I’m not sure. I, I, slept for a little bit in, at the Tim Hortons in Brockville so it might be later. I honestly can’t remember when I got to Ottawa but…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Yeah, midnight – ish Saturday.

Detective: Mm-hm.

[silence]

Detective: So, you get home here in Ottawa. What do you do? Do you go to bed or…?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: … stay up? So, then what do you do the next day?

Russell Williams: Well, my wife and I did some stuff. I can’t remember what, uh, what was going on that day. You know, putting together the new house and I headed back to Tweed that night.

Detective: Mm-hm.

Russell Williams: Is that right? Sorry. Uh, no. I didn’t. I had, uh, I had Monday off. That’s right. I had Monday off and then I was visiting, uh, one of the units in Ottawa on Tuesday so I didn’t head back to Tweed until Tuesday night.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: [clears throat]

Detective: So you get back to Tweed and what happens next?

Russell Williams: [deeply inhales] I, uh, I took Jessica’s body to that spot.

Detective: Okay, that happened Tuesday night, just this past Tuesday, obviously.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, do you remember what time it was?

Russell Williams: It was pretty late. It was, um, midnight – ish I’d say. Between midnight and one on uh, Wednesday morning.

Detective: Okay, um, what made you decide to measure that distance, that point, 7 kilometers?

Russell Williams: That’s just the way I am. Numbers, I have to know the numbers.

Detective: Okay, and um, how did you leave her?

Russell Williams: I just left her tucked behind a, uh, a fairly large rock.

Detective: Is that duct tape still on her?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Um, and what else is on her?

Russell Williams: Couple towels wrapped around her head and uh, the top and pants she was wearing. Jeans.

Detective: Okay. Did you ever go back there?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Alright. Um, what other type of cleaning things like that, did you do anything else to kind of cover your tracks that you can think of?

Russell Williams: I vacuumed the house and I, uh, wiped the, the floor, washed the floor.

Detective: Okay, what about your truck, do you do anything with that?

Russell Williams: Just, uh, washed it uh, ‘cause it was a mess and vacuum.

Detective: Okay, um, so Marie-France, when did, uh, when did it first occur to you to go to her house?

Russell Williams: Uh, [sigh] well, probably October, October, November, not quite sure but somewhere in that time period.

Detective: And do you remember why you, that you thought to, um, do that?

Russell Williams: Uh, well, you know, she had said she lived alone on the one time I met her.

Detective: Mm-hm.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

[silence]

Russell Williams: Yeah. [deeply inhales]

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: [sighs]

Detective: Um, I’m just trying to understand like, why her versus you know, the dozens of other women you’ve probably come across.

Russell Williams: I don’t know, you know, I, you know, I went out there when she wasn’t home just to see where she lived and…

Detective: When did you do that?

Russell Williams: Couple nights before.

Detective: And how did you know her address?

Russell Williams: Well, I just headed down the road from the Base here.

Detective: Okay, so when you go out there a couple nights before, do you remember what night that was when you were there the first time?

Russell Williams: I don’t, uh, but I, it’s, it was within 2 or 3 nights, I think.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Oh well, no more than 4 anyway. Something like that.

Detective: And did you actually go into her house on that occasion or did you just uh…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay so what happened that night? How did you, how did you get into her house?

Russell Williams: This window on the side of the basement, side window.

Detective: Okay, and just to back us up a bit, uh, how did you get to her house that, that first night you went there?

Russell Williams: I drove.

Detective: What did you drive?

Russell Williams: [sigh] Uh, I think I drove my truck.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Pathfinder.

Detective: And do you remember where you parked it?

Russell Williams: Yeah, I parked at, um, the, the division in the residential areas there. I parked it on the other side, yeah six, seven hundred metres away.

Detective: Okay, so not on her street?

Russell Williams: On a different street. Do you remember what street you parked on? No, but it’s actually might be the same street but there’s…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: … an interruption in the street where there’s a construction zone so there’s a pathway inbetween so uh, I think it’s probably the same street.

Detective: Okay, so you, uh, you go to her house and when you went there that night did you know she was away?

Russell Williams:  Uh, I’m not sure if I knew entirely but I, I think I thought she was away.

Detective: Okay, is that based on her schedule or, or how it, how would you know that?

Russell Williams: Uh, well yeah, ‘cause I fly with the squadron, I have access to the schedule and…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: …it’s, it’s slightly different schedule she has but that’s probably how I knew.

Detective: You don’t know for sure?

Russell Williams:  I think that’s probably how I knew.

Detective: Okay, so you go to her house…

Russell Williams:  Mm-hm.

Detective: …and what do you do that night, the first night?

Russell Williams: Well, I looked around and um, I made sure that she was living there alone.

Detective: … And I’m sorry did, did you say, I can’t remember if you said how, how did you get in?

Russell Williams: Same, same way through the bottom side basement window.

Detective: Side basement window. Do you remember what kind of window it is, like what made it, uh…

Russell Williams: Well, I just noticed that it was well, I noticed with the flashlight, I could see that it was not locked. It had been open slightly so I removed the screen, slid it open, went in.

Detective: Okay, so you go in and uh, you’re in her house figuring out she lives alone and, and, uh, do you do anything that night?

Russell Williams: Yeah, I was playing with her, uh, underwear.

Detective: What do you mean playing with her underwear?

Russell Williams: Well, wearing it.

Detective: Okay, is there anything else?

Russell Williams: Well, I didn’t, I didn’t touch her stuff.

Detective: What do you mean you didn’t touch her stuff? I mean, you touched…

Russell Williams: [deeply inhales]

Detective: …her underwear [inaudible]

Russell Williams: Well, yeah.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: But nothing else.

Detective: Okay, did you take any of the underwear with you that night?

Russell Williams: Yeah, a few pieces.

Detective: And where did you find the underwear when you went in?

Russell Williams: In her drawer.

Detective: Was it clean, was it used or?

Russell Williams: Clean.

Detective: Yeah, um, anything else you can remember doing that evening that you..,?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Alright, so, um, after that first visit did you return again before meeting up with her?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay, so which day did you go to her house when she was there?

Russell Williams: Well the night before I went to Ottawa so, I think that was Monday night.

Detective: Alright, um, so let’s walk through that, uh, what time do you think you got there?

Russell Williams: About eleven or so, probably ten thirty, eleven.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Yeah, so she was on the phone in her room. I could hear that, uh, from the back yard. I got in through the uh, side window.

Detective: The same basement window?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: How could you hear her from the backyard, what was uh…

Russell Williams: I could see her on the phone from beside, uh, beside the house. I could hear her through the walls that she was on the phone.

Detective: Okay, any idea who she was talking to or what she was talking about?

Russell Williams: No, I couldn’t hear that well.

Detective: Okay, so you go in through the basement window and what are you wearing when this is happening?

Russell Williams: Um, a sweatshirt and Dockers, I guess and the, um, 2 pieces on my head.

Detective: Okay and where are those 2 pieces now, the pieces that you wore on the head?

Russell Williams: Uh, they’re probably in my bag in, um, my luggage bag, and it’s in the bedroom.

Detective: What does your luggage bag look like?

Russell Williams: It’s, um, blue duffle bag type thing. It’s right beside the bed.

Detective: Okay. There the only blue duffle bag in your bedroom?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Um, and these pieces, what do they look like again?

Russell Williams: It’s a blue headband.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Standard blue, you know, winter head band and uh, black skull cap type thing.

Detective: Okay, any insignias or anything on them?

Russell Williams: Yeah, there are but I don’t know what they are.

Detective: Do you know what…

Russell Williams: The blue headband has something, uh, you know, stitched. Uh, uh, name of some sort stitched on it and the, uh, skull cap has some sort of emblem on it. White emblem on the black. I don’t know what it is.

Detective: Are they like, sports emblems or company emblems or…

Russell Williams: Uh, it’s the manufacturer’s…

Detective: Okay, anything else in that blue, uh, duffle bag?

Russell Williams: I think so.

Detective: Is it full of things other than…

Russell Williams: Just, just my clothes.

Detective: Okay, um, you go in, uh, do you remember what you had on your feet?

Russell Williams: In the house there?

Detective: When you went to Marie-France’s house.

Russell Williams: No, I don’t. Probably running shoes. There wasn’t snow on the ground.

Detective: Okay, so you go in and you’re in the basement and uh, whereabouts in the basement are you?

Russell Williams: Um, by the furnace.

Detective: Okay, and what are you doing? What, what, uh, what’s your, sort of, plan at that point?

Russell Williams: I was waiting for her to go to bed.

Detective: Okay, and how long did that take?

Russell Williams: Well, she didn’t.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: So then she came down looking for the cat.

Detective: Alright, and uh, what happens next?

Russell Williams: Well, as I described, I subdued her, hit her with the flashlight, got, essentially wrestled her to the ground, and tied her up.

Detective: Okay, and what did you use to tie her up?

Russell Williams: Same rope. Green rope. It’s in Tweed.

Detective: It is just green or like, uh, how long is this piece of rope?

Russell Williams: Mm… It’s probably, um, 20 feet. It’s a boat, boat rope. It’s got some red specs in it, I think.

Detective: Okay, is there lots of ropes in Tweed or is this probably the only rope.

Russell Williams: No, this, uh, there are 2, 2 lengths.

Detective: 2 lengths of the same green rope?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: And were they both used?

Russell Williams: Uh, well, I, I only ever had one with me so I don’t know if I used the same piece both times or not but only 2 lengths of rope.

Detective: Okay, so you tie her, tie her up. How did you tie her up after you subdue her?

Russell Williams: Hands behind her back.

Detective: Okay, and what is she wearing at that point?

Russell Williams: She wasn’t wearing anything to start with.

Detective: So, when she came down to the basement she had no clothes on?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm, she had some sort of shawl over her shoulder…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: …which she immediately dropped when she saw me.

Detective: Did she say anything when she saw you?

Russell Williams: She did, she called out “you bastard”.

Detective: Okay, and then what happened?

Russell Williams: Then I subdued her, as I described.

Detective: By hitting her with that red flashlight?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Oh, they were more glancing, glancing blows. Cut her skin but weren’t doing much else.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: She fell over and then I subdued her when she tripped.

Detective: Okay, how did you tie her at that point. Like, I know you used the rope but what were, what did you tie her up, up, like?

Russell Williams: Just told her to put her, well, I pulled her hand behind her back and just tied her wrists together.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: [sigh]

Detective: Then, then what happened after that?

Russell Williams: Then I took her upstairs.

Detective: Did she go upstairs under her own power or did you carry her?

Russell Williams: No, she passed out, um, on the stairs and then I carried her up.

Detective: Why do you think she passed out?

Russell Williams: I expect, uh, from the hits to her head.

Detective: So, you carried her up to where?

Russell Williams: To her bedroom, put her on the bed.

Detective: Okay, and then what happened?

Russell Williams: Uh, well as I described I think, I, uh, pushed her on the bed. I raped her over a period of time.

Detective: Okay. In the interest of being specific, what sex acts took place?

Russell Williams: Just vaginal.

Detective: Your penis in her vagina?

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: Any condom used?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Did you ejaculate?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Did you ejaculate at any point with her?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay. Um, just before I forget, I think I asked you, don’t mean to bounce around here, Russ, with Jessica, I asked you about ejaculation. You said you didn’t at that point. When did you ejaculate with Jessica?

Russell Williams: Um, the second time or third time that I had her, um, perform oral sex.

Detective: And was that at her residence or yours?

Russell Williams: Hers.

Detective: Okay. Any other times you ejaculated with her?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay. Um, when you ejaculated with Jessica did you use anything to clean up or?

Russell Williams. No.

Detective: What happened to the ejaculate?

Russell Williams: She swallowed it.

Detective: Um, okay, so getting back to Marie-France, it’s just straight vaginal sex, no condom, no ejaculation. Is that right?

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: Okay, um, how long does that go for, like how long were you engaged in that activity?

Russell Williams: [sigh] uh, [sigh] couple, well, hour and a half, two hours, I guess.

Detective: Okay and then what happens next?

Russell Williams: Well, as I described I suffocated her using, um, duct tape.

Detective: Why did you decide to do that?

Russell Williams: Well, again, because of the pictures kind of, as I described to you it would’ve, um, it was going to be a pretty straight line back to Tweed.

Detective: Okay, but why, why, why did you decide to use that method versus something else?

Russell Williams: Just, I had, uh, thought about strangling her earlier. It’s on the video.

Detective: What is?

Russell Williams: My, uh, well, it was a short-lived attempt because she struggled quite a bit and I decided that I needed to suffocate her.

Detective: So, uh, it was a short lived attempt to strangle her and what’s on the video? The suffocation or the strangling?

Russell Williams: Well, just me putting my hand around her throat and then her uh, responding, you know, no surprise, very aggressively.

Detective: Okay. Any videos of the, uh, suffocation part or pictures of that?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Um, now, you, you mentioned that you brought the rope with you. Where did the duct tape come from?

Russell Williams: I brought it.

Detective: Okay, and what did you do with it afterwards?

Russell Williams: [deeply inhales] I think it uh [sigh] that it stayed in Tweed.

Detective: What color of duct tape are we talking about? I know it comes in a variety of colors but…

Russell Williams: Grey.

Detective: Grey. Um, so before, uh, the suffocation, uh, obviously, how, how long do you think you were with her from the point, well, how long do you think you were in that house from the point you went in that window to the point you left?

Russell Williams: Probably, um, 4 hours.

Detective: Okay, so correct me if I’m wrong, did you say you would’ve gotten there at 11 or around 11?

Russell Williams: I think that’s right.

Detective: Okay so like, you left around 3 in the morning?

Russell Williams: Well, I was in the basement for quite a while before she came down, like she wasn’t going to bed so I was probably in the basement for 30, 40 minutes.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: So, by the time she saw me it was probably closer to midnight…

Detective: Alright, um…

Russell Williams: …but I didn’t have a watch on so I’m not sure.

Detective: …any gloves?

Russell Williams: [sigh] I don’t think so.

Detective: Did you wear gloves with Jessica?

Russell Williams: Uh, only to get in the house. It was a very cold night.

Detective: Well, what about the 2 women in, uh, in Tweed?

Russell Williams: No gloves.

Detective: Okay, so while you’re with Marie-France, what kind of conversations are taking place, you anything in she said to stick out in your mind?

Russell Williams: No, no. I taped her mouth. There’s no conversation.

Detective: Okay, when did you tape her mouth?

Russell Williams: [sigh] Soon as I got her up to the bedroom.

Detective: Why did you decide to do that?

Russell Williams: Because she was, uh, you know, quite aggressive.

Detective: In what way?

Russell Williams: I was confident she was, uh, would have screamed given the chance…

Detective: What way was…

Russell Williams: … because she did initially.

Detective: Did she?

Russell Williams: In the basement.

Detective:  So, in what way was she aggressive?

Russell Williams: Oh, just in, you know, when she discovered me she was very vocal, screamed quite a bit until I subdued her so I expected she would scream again given the chance.

Detective: Okay, do you remember how you left her residence?

Russell Williams: Back door, patio door.

Detective: Okay, did you take anything with you that night?

Russell Williams: Some of her underwear.

Detective: Anything else?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Alright, um, did you do anything else to try and uh, cover your tracks with Marie-France?

Russell Williams: [deeply inhale] um, well, I had turned off my Blackberry before I left Trenton. Other than that, no.

Detective: Do you remember trying to destroy any kind of evidence there the, or anything you thought may have uh, produced evidence or anything?

Russell Williams: Oh, I took her sheets off the bed and ran them through the laundry.

Detective: Like the laundry, where at?

Russell Williams: In her house.

Detective: Okay, did you run them completely through? Did you wait for it to finish or…?

Russell Williams: No, I just put them in and put a whole bunch of bleach in and let it go.

Detective: Okay, so the night you went to her house and got there at 11, you came from where, like you said, you left Trenton.

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: You turned off your Blackberry. You did, you talking about the Base or you talking about, uh, where did you leave to go to her house?

Russell Williams: Well, no, I just turned off my Blackberry before I left the Trenton area. [sigh] Um, I would’ve left from the Base after work.

Detective: Alright, when did you turn your, when did you, uh, what time do you think you turned your Blackberry off?

Russell Williams: Well, it’s only a half hour drive to Brighton so you know, probably in the nine, nine thirty range.

Detective: Do you remember what, uh, what time you would’ve turned it back on?

Russell Williams: When I was back on the 401 heading to Ottawa the next morning.

Detective: What time would that have been?

Russell Williams: So, six, plus or minus 30 minutes.

Detective: Okay, so you leave her house three-ish.

Russell Williams: No, I, I think it was later that, that so 4 hours obviously it was… I think, uh, yeah, I think I went in about 11, was in the basement for quite a while. Probably left her house closer to four, four thirty, something like that.

Detective: Okay, and where do you go?

Russell Williams: Uh, I drove to Ottawa.

Detective: Straight to Ottawa?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Did you go by your house in Tweed or anything or do you just go straight home?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Do you remember what route you took?

Russell Williams: Uh, yeah. 401, uh, from her place. Uh, I think I went straight north on, uh, whatever the road is that goes straight through Brighton up to the 401, hit the 401 and headed East.

Detective: Okay, and so you’re going to what’s the meeting, you’re having that day in Ottawa. Remind me.

Russell Williams: It’s a meeting on, uh, the C17 acquisition project.

Detective: Okay, and who ran that meeting?

Russell Williams: [deeply inhales] The project manager, Miss Sue Hale.

Detective: Okay, is that the only meeting around that time period you would’ve went to on that issue with Sue Hale?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: There wasn’t like a weekly meeting or anything like that?

Russell Williams: No, this is sort of a quarterly.

Detective: Alright. Um, so, the night you went, the night this happened, uh, where did you park, uh, that night?

Russell Williams: As I said, across the gravel little roadway probably and it’s probably the same road…

Detective: Okay, same, uh, location to the first night?

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: Alright. Same, same vehicle?

Russell Williams: Yeah, truck.

Detective: Yeah, alright, um, okay. Let’s talk about uh, the, oh, seeing how’s, we’re going backwards in time here, why don’t we talk about the second incident in Tweed. Um, with, uh, Laurie Massicotte. The that that’s uh, at 76 Cozy Cove. How did you, uh, decide on her?

Russell Williams: I knew she lived alone. That’s it.

Detective: And how did you know that?

Russell Williams: Well, she lives 3 doors down and uh, didn’t know her but I knew she is pretty alone. She had boyfriend and hadn’t seemed to be, hadn’t been around so [sigh] you know, um, looked in the window and she was alone.

Detective: So, she, she had a boyfriend but he wasn’t…

Russell Williams: He wasn’t there.

Detective: …too frequently, okay.

Russell Williams: Well, he wasn’t, uh, she told me that they were fighting so that’s why he hadn’t been there.

Detective: Okay, so um, did you look in her house before the night that this, this incident happened or when did you do that?

Russell Williams: Yeah, I’d been in, uh, within the week, probably a couple nights earlier.

Detective: What did you do that night?

Russell Williams: I, um, I looked around to see if there were any permanent signs of her boyfriend, I guess. Took, uh, 1 or 2 pieces of her underwear, that’s all.

Detective: Okay, so the night you go there…

Russell Williams: [sigh]

Detective: Uh, when the incident happens, uh, do you remember what time it was?

Russell Williams: It was pretty late. Um, I probably got into the house around midnight. She was asleep on the couch though. I didn’t know that, but I knew she was in there.

Detective: And how did you get in? Sorry.

Russell Williams: Uh, window in the back of the house. There’s a little sunroom.

Detective: Was it just something you had to slid or, or how did you..?

Russell Williams: I had to remove the screen and uh, and slide it up.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: [sigh] So I got into the house and uh, she was asleep in front of the TV.

Detective: Wearing anything on your face that night?

Russell Williams: Yeah, same things.

Detective: Okay, the headband and the uh, the cap.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, um, what kind of clothes did you have on?

Russell Williams: Just dark sweatshirt or pants.

Detective: Alright, so she’s asleep on the couch. You’re in there and then what happens?

Russell Williams: [laugh] We have been through this, eh.

Detective: I know.

Russell Williams: I struck her with the, uh, flashlight thinking it would knock her out. It didn’t. We struggled. I subdued her, took some pictures, left. Was probably in the house about two, two and a half hours.

Detective: That’s a pretty short description for two and a half hours.

Russell Williams: Well, we talked. I, uh, I told her I wasn’t going to hurt her. I, uh, told her that there were other guys in the house robbing her. My job was just to control her. [sigh]

Detective: What did she say to that?

Russell Williams: She was scared and was worried she was going to be seriously hurt.

Detective: Did she say that or did you…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: … just assume that?

Russell Williams: No, no. She said that she was, she was worried she was going to be killed. I said I’m not going to kill you.

Detective: What did you do with, uh, you said you took pictures of her, um, clothed, unclothed?

Russell Williams: Uh, both. Clothed initially and then unclothed.

Detective: Okay, are you in any of those pictures?

Russell Williams: Don’t think so.

Detective: You just took them of her. What kind of camera are you using by the way? It’s a….

Russell Williams: It’s a digital, uh, Sony.

Detective: Do you just have the one camera?

Russell Williams: Yeah, and the video camera.

Detective: Oh, so they’re 2 separate…

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: …cause some cameras take video, right?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Um, and where is the camera and the, and the video camera?

Russell Williams: It’s in Tweed.

Detective: Is it the only camera and video camera in that house?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, alright, um, so you take pictures of her and how do you end up leaving? Do you, uh…

Russell Williams: Oh, I just told her to, um, I don’t know, count or wait for, uh, a number of minutes before, uh, before she called the police.

Detective: Okay, and did you leave immediately, or did you stay there for a while…

Russell Williams: Well, uh…

Detective: …see what she was going to do or?

Russell Williams: I left.

Detective: Um, and where do you go?

Russell Williams: Home.

Detective: Straight home?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, did you, did you wait to see if police showed up or anything or…

Russell Williams: No, no, it’s uh, you know… [deeply inhales]

Detective: So what did you do when you got home?

Russell Williams: … couple hundred feet. Uh, I went to sleep.

Detective: Okay, and what did you do the next day?

Russell Williams: Went to work, normal time.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Couple hours later.

Detective: Alright, um, do you remember how, uh, her clothing was removed?

Russell Williams: [sigh] uh, well, cause her hands were tied behind her back I think I cut off her top and then pulled off her bottom.

Detective: What did you use to cut her top?

Russell Williams: Um, I can’t remember if it was a knife or like a folding Exacto knife or Leatherman or one of the two.

Detective: Are these items that are in your house in Tweed?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, is there every any other time you used a, a, a knife to cut off clothing or anything else? Do you remember?

Russell Williams: Uh, I cut off Jessica’s top with a knife ‘cause her hands were tied behind her back. That’s all.

Detective: Okay, where’s that knife, which knife did…

Russell Williams: Same.

Detective: …you use?

Russell Williams: That was the Leatherman.

Detective: That was the Leatherman.

Russell Williams: Tweed.

Detective: Okay, is it the only Leatherman in, in Tweed?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, um, so on the 16th of September, uh, [edited] when you went that night, was that the first time you’d been in her house?

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: Okay, and why her?

Russell Williams: Just ‘cause I’d seen her and she was cute. That’s it.

Detective: Okay, so there was no, um, you didn’t go into her house before that?

Russel Williams: [deeply inhale]

Detective: …that night.

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Alright, um, so you go in and how did you get into her house?

Russell Williams: Side window, the, uh, was not locked. Cut the screen, slid the window, crawled in.

Detective: Okay, and uh, what are you wearing?

Russell Williams: Same. Sweatshirt, dark pants.

Detective: And the same hat and…

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Okay, uh, and where do you find, uh, [edited]?

Russell Williams: In bed, asleep.

Detective: Okay, and what do you do?

Russell Williams: [Deeply inhales] Stood over her for a while and then I, uh, hit her on the left side of her head, just with my hand. Just woke her up. We struggled then I just lay on her. And uh, very much like I described a little but ago. Took off her, pulled her top down and took off her pants. Took some pictures and left.

Detective: Do you remember her saying anything to you?

Russell Williams: Yes.

Detective: What does she say to you?

Russell Williams: Well, all kinds of things. Um, you know, she had a, a young baby just uh, next door. The other room, 8 months or so. So obviously concerned about the baby. Concerned for herself. I assured her I was not going to hurt her. Physically, anyway. [deeply inhale]

Detective: Okay, um, any underwear taken from [edited]

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: Or Laurie?

Russell Williams: Yeah, both.

Detective: And where would they be located?

Russell Williams: In Tweed.

Detective: And why are they in Tweed as opposed to uh, um, Marie-France and Jessica’s underwear.

Russell Williams: I don’t know.

Detective: Do you remember how much of their underwear you took?

Russell Williams: Um [sigh] not very much from Laurie. [edited]

Detective: Okay, do they know that you took their underwear?

Russell Williams: I don’t know.

Detective: You didn’t discuss it with them or anything. Um, so where in Tweed would their underwear be?

Russell Williams: [sigh] Um, in the, uh, laundry room area…

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: …just between the house and the garage.

Detective: Right.

Russell Williams: [sigh]

Detective: Where in the laundry room area would they be kept?

Russell Williams: There’s a cupboard, uh, up top. They’re in a duffle bag.

Detective: What does the duffle bag look like?

Russell Williams: It’s a green Army duffle bag.

Detective: Okay, are they all in the same duffle bag? Is there anything else in the duffle bag?

Russell Williams: [sigh] just underwear.

Detective: Okay, um, when these, when these pictures uh, are looked at, um, you talked about being in Marie-France’s underwear on the first night, you went in. Did you take photographs of that?

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: What about anybody else’s underwear?

Russell Williams: Yeah, photos.

Detective: Of you in their underwear?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: And where were those photos taken?

Russell Williams: Um, well, sometimes in as in, in Marie-France’s case, in her house [sigh]. The others in my house.

Detective: In Tweed.

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: So, was this the matter, you take and later go back and, and then at some point looking around and take pictures…What about Jessica’s underwear?

Russell Williams: Uh, she’s only her, really.

Detective: So, you don’t have pictures of you in her underwear?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay, alright. Um, okay, well, I guess, uh, I just have a couple of questions for you, I mean, I’m sure there’s going to be more questions but I guess what’s on my mind right now, uh, Russ, is um, what made you decide to tell me this tonight?

Russell Williams: Mostly to make my wife’s life easier.

Detective: Okay. Is what you told me tonight the truth?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: Okay, how do you feel about what you’ve done? Like what, uh…

[silence]

Russell Williams: Disappointed.

Detective: Okay. Let me ask you this. If, um, if this didn’t come to the point it’s at right now, if for whatever reason you didn’t end up on our, on our radar so to speak, uh, do you think it would’ve happened again?

Russell Williams: I was hoping not but I can’t answer that question but [edited]

Detective: Okay, um, not too much here, Russ. Just a few details that I wanted to cover off and specifically dealing with Marie-France. Um, in the basement of her house, um, there’s a hole in the, uh, drywall. Do you recall how that happened?

Russell Williams: Whereabouts?

Detective: Uh, I don’t know specifically but it’s downstairs.

Russell Williams: I don’t remember that, no.

Detective: Okay, do you remember doing anything with her in the basement, uh, where you may have used some clothing or something to, uh, secure her?

Russell Williams: Yeah, I tied her up against one of the, uh, poles in the basement initially and I went outside and put the screen back on and secured the window.

Detective: Okay, while she was tied to the pole.

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: And what was your thinking behind doing that at that point?

Russell Williams: Just to cover up how I’d come in.

Detective: Okay, um, now by the time she’s tied to that pole, is that in the very initial few minutes kind of thing, of the confrontation or?

Russell Williams: It was shortly after I’d subdued her and tied her up, yes.

Detective: Okay, does she have duct tape on her mouth yet?

Russell Williams: I think probably.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: The pictures will show it.

Detective: Alright, now in the upstairs bathroom, by her bedroom, there’s uh, looks like something’s occurred in there. Do you remember that?

Russell Williams: Yep.

Detective: What happened there?

Russell Williams: She had passed out on the bed and I had gone to look out the front window to see if anybody was coming and uh, she got up and closed the bedroom door and raced into the bathroom trying to uh, get somebody’s attention but her mouth was taped and her hands were tied.

Detective: Okay. What did you do as a result of that?

Russell Williams: Well, I just got in and subdued her again and got, got her back into the bedroom.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Didn’t do anything, just regained control of her.

Detective: Okay, if I remember correctly there’s a bit, little bit of blood in there. Do you know where that blood would’ve, how that, that would have occurred?

Russell Williams: All the blood was from the initial hits as I was trying to subdue her.

Detective: Okay.

Russell Williams: Her skin breaking with the, uh, blows to her head.

Detective: Okay, do you recall blood being in the bathroom?

Russell Williams: No, actually. I didn’t have the light on in there but it doesn’t surprise me.

Detective: Okay. Um, there’s a pair of underwear and some socks on the floor of that bathroom that belong to her. Do you remember how they got there? Remember seeing them?

Russell Williams: I don’t, didn’t see them, no.

Detective: Okay, what do you recall doing to her breasts, it’s pretty clear that there was some, something happened to her breasts. Do you remember what that might have been?

Russell Williams: Mm, no. I, I certainly touched her breasts. I didn’t do anything to hurt them.

Detective: Don’t remember that?

Russell Williams: No.

Detective: Okay, alright, um, well Russ…

Russell Williams: Now, when I suffocated her, she was on her, her front so it may have been something there but…

Detective: What do you mean?

Russell Williams: Well, she was lying on the floor in the bedroom as I suffocated her and obviously struggled. It may have been in there that something happened, but I didn’t do anything specific to her breasts.

Detective: Okay. So, what do you suffocate her, that’s when you had the duct tape over her mouth and nose?

Russell Williams: Mm-hm.

Detective: And that’s on the floor?

Russell Williams: Yeah.

Detective: And um, then what happens after that?

Russell Williams: Well, she died and I, um, then took the duct tape off her head and put her on the bed and covered her up with the duvet.

Detective: Okay, and what was your thinking behind doing that?

Russell Williams: I don’t know. Nothing really.

Detective: Okay, alright. Um, as you might expect your arrest, uh, certainly, uh, even now one of the uh, Ottawa investigators mentioned to me that um, there’s a number of incidents that uh, that have done unsolved over the years…[cough]

Russell Williams: Can I, I was going to get into that, can I go to the washroom quickly?

Detective: Yeah, I can get somebody to take you to the washroom. Okay.

Dalia Dippolito Case Summary

dippolitoFour months after meeting Mike Dippolito as a client, former escort Dalia Dippolito (Mohammed) married Mike Dippolito in 2009. Within 6 months of their marriage, she hired a man to kill her husband. Fortunately, that man was a police officer. Another man Dalia Dippolito was seeing reported to police that he was afraid something was going to happen to either Mike or Dalia Dippolito and the investigation began. Many phone calls were recorded along with a video of Dalia in the undercover police officer’s car stating that she was “5000 percent sure” that she wanted Mike Dippolito dead and agreed to pay a $1200 deposit.

Dippolito3After the police staged a crime scene at her house and told her that her husband was shot and murdered, she was taken to the police station for what she believed to be an informal interview. When asked if she knew anyone who would want to harm her husband, she told a story about “guys” involved in organized crime being mad that Mike Dippolito was using money he owed them to pay off his probation. After she was finished with this story, the interrogators told her about how they found out through their investigation that Mike Dippolito opened the front door and was taken upstairs where he was shot twice and killed. She argued this, saying he would not have opened the door because they had cameras. The investigators exited the room and pretended to have someone call to see if the house had been burglarized before coming back and telling her that they knew she hired the hitman. The investigators brought in the man she hired in handcuffs before telling her that he is actually a police officer. She denied “doing anything” despite video and audio evidence. The video and transcript of this interrogation can be found here.

dippolito2There have been 3 trials for Dalia Dippolito’s case. In 2011 she was convicted and sentenced to 20 years, but this was overturned on appeal. The second trial in 2016 ended in a hung jury, and in 2017, a third trial ended in a guilty verdict. She tried to get a fourth trial, but her conviction was upheld. Dalia Dippolito claims the police department set her up to impress the reality TV show, “COPS”.

Dalia Dippolito Interrogation Transcript

Dalia Dippolito married Mike Dippolito in 2009. Within 6 months of their marriage, she hired a man to kill her husband. Fortunately, that man was a police officer. Another man Dalia Dippolito was seeing reported to police that he was afraid something was going to happen to either Mike or Dalia Dippolito and the investigation began. Many phone calls were recorded along with a video of Dalia in the undercover police officer’s car stating that she was “5000 percent sure” that she wanted Mike Dippolito dead and agreed to pay a $1200 deposit. After the police staged a crime scene at her house and told her that her husband was shot and murdered, she was taken to the police station for what she believed to be an informal interview. Below is the interrogation where she is confronted by police and they disclose that they were involved the whole time and she is being arrested for solicitation of first degree murder.

Dalia Dippolito Interrogation Transcript

Investigator: Protocol that we have to do is [inaudible] We’ve got to advise you your rights, so you know. Okay? If you don’t understand any of them, just tell me and I’ll stop and repeat the, first of all let me just tell you I’m sorry for your loss.

Dalia Dippolito: I just want to see my husband [inaudible crying]

Investigator: Alright, hun.

Dalia Dippolito: [inaudible crying] see him.

Investigator: No, no. You don’t want to see him.

Dalia Dippolito: I just want to see him.

Investigator: Believe me, you don’t. Could you listen, please? I am required [inaudible] before you make any statement that you have the following constitutional rights. And as I said, it’s protocol.  If you don’t understand them, tell me you don’t understand them and I’ll explain them to you, okay?

Dalia Dippolito: Okay.

Investigator:  You have the right to remain silent and not answer any questions. Do you understand that? You have, you have to answer me.

Dalia Dippolito: [inaudible cry]

Investigator: Just say yes.

Dalia Dippolito: Yes.

Investigator: Any statement you make must be freely and voluntarily given. Do you understand that?

Dalia Dippolito: Yes.

Investigator: If you have a, you have the right to the presence and representation of a lawyer before you make any statements and during any questioning. Do you understand that?

Dalia Dippolito: Yes.

Investigator:  If you can not afford a lawyer you’re entitled to the presence and representation of a court appointed lawyer before you make any statements and during any questions. Do you understand that.

Dalia Dippolito: Yes. Yes.

Investigator: If at anytime during interview you do not wish to answer any questions you [inaudible] to remain silent. Do you understand that? I can make no threats or promises [inaudible] to issue a statement. This must be on your own free will. Do you understand that?

Dalia Dippolito: Yes.

Investigator: Any statement can and will be used against you in the court of law. Do you understand that?

Dalia Dippolito: Yes.

Investigator: I’m going to ask you to sign it, and date it and I will have Detective Anderson as a witness. Okay?

Dalia Dippolito: Okay.

Investigator: Sign on the exes please.

Detective Anderson: I’ll go ahead and date it, Dalia.

Investigator:  Okay, it’s um, got the time? Got the time on you? Okay, this is uh, this is something, because we’re going to video tape, that I need you to sign also. It gives us the right to video tape it. You want to read that?

Dalia Dippolito: I don’t want to be video taped.

Investigator: Well, you are being video taped. That’s all part of it.

Dalia Dippolito: Who’s number is that?

Investigator: That’s your home number.

Dalia Dippolito: Oh.

Investigator: We got that from our reports that have been filed here. Uh, I mean, I’ll tell you what’s going on here. Okay. Listen, is there anybody that you know that you think would want to kill your husband.

Dalia Dippolito: My husband’s on probation.

Investigator: For what?

Dalia Dippolito: He, for stock fraud.

Investigator:  Stock fraud? How long have you been on probation?

Detective Anderson: Probation or parole? Has he spent any time in prison? How much? Do you know?

Dalia Dippolito: Um. Two years in prison and five years on probation. So came out to six years.

Investigator: Oh, oh my god. And what was that for?

Dalia Dippolito: It was for taking money, like, he explained it like, boiler room kind of, where they would take money from people …

Investigator: Oh, I understand.

Dalia Dippolito: …and put it towards things.

Investigator:  Yeah. How long have you guys been married?

Dalia Dippolito: [sigh] Not even a year.

Investigator: This is tragic. Is there anybody that you can think of that would want to do this to him?

Dalia Dippolito: I was telling the officers, we’ve problems already and…

Investigator: What sorts of…

Dalia Dippolito: …he’s been trying to get off probation and it’s been nothing but problems the whole time that he’s been trying to get off. Um, people weren’t happy that he was getting off probation because it’s a lot of money you got to pay back.

Investigator: Well, when you say people, who are you talking about? People was involved in before or…

Dalia Dippolito: A little bit of everything. This was supposed to be something, when he got off probation it was supposed to be between us and he went and he told, you know, friends of his, he told, you know, certain people. And everyone kind of talks and he’s constantly running into a lot of the guys that he was on probation with. Like, a couple days ago we ran into someone and that was, uh, a target. I mean, you know, the guy comes up to us and he’s like with organized crime. It seems like the guys from Boca are moving up here. And we’re constantly running into, you know what I mean, a lot of the guys he knows and things like that.

Investigator: Mm-hm.

Dalia Dippolito: So it’s a lot of money. It was 191,000 dollars…

Detective Anderson: [noise of suprise]

Dalia Dippolito: …he had to pay back. So we were going to go ahead and he had the money to pay off the probation and everything like that and then, I guess somehow, when he went away, some guys didn’t go away, they…

Investigator: When you say go away you mean went to prison?

Dalia Dippolito: Right. They left the country. And then somehow he was dealing with those guys because they thought that he owed them and I don’t know. Something with that that he was taking care of. So, the money he used to get off probation, he never…

Investigator: Ohhh.

Dalia Dippolito: He never, said that he did something else with that, with that money.

Investigator: Yeah, now do you know any of these people, their names, or anything like that, or where they live so we may be able to follow it up? We’re not going to, we’re not going to implicate you.

Dalia Dippolito: The guys that left, I don’t know.

Investigator: You don’t know them?

Dalia Dippolito: I don’t know them.

Investigator: You never met them?

Dalia Dippolito: No. I mean I know the guy we ran into a couple days ago. I know, I know like, certain names. You know what I mean? And I know certain names families. They were all on the news. Like the guys that all just went away…

Investigator: Mm-hm.

Dalia Dippolito: I forget what family.

Investigator: See Ronny and I and the squad, they only work major crimes. We only work murders, or homicides, and, and very serious assaults and kidnappings, and police shootings, things like. We only specialize in that. We don’t, we don’t work in anything else. So I wouldn’t know about the theft money that he may have been involved in. That’s why I’m asking if you know any names, then we can run these guys down and see what they know.

Dalia Dippolito: Well, another, those group of guys, they all went away. But he’s saying one of them, I guess somehow, he has a problem. I don’t know what problem he had, it was before we met. He ran into these guys and the guy thought he owed him something or something happened but they went away. I don’t know if the one guy I’m telling you about, pasquell, if he also went away or if he didn’t. But since this all happened like a month and a half ago they’ve all been arrested again for the same stock fraud stuff again.

Detective Anderson: That first name pasquell or last?

Dalia Dippolito: I don’t know.

Investigator: Is it pasqualli or pasquall?

Dalia Dippolito: Pasquall.

Investigator: Okay. What nationality are you? Spanish?

Dalia Dippolito: My mom is from Peru and my dad is from Egypt.

Investigator: Wow.

Dalia Dippolito: Yeah.

Investigator: There’s uh, I understand, a couple animals at your house too, right?

Dalia Dippolito: So, I guess, I want to tell you everything. The whole [cross talk]

Investigator: Please do. [Cross] Yeah, I do. I want to know.

Dalia Dippolito:  Okay, so that’s what happened with that. So, he didn’t know how to tell everybody what was going on with everything…

Investigator: Mm-hm.

Dalia Dippolito: …and so he pretty much, he told them that like, you know, I have the money and I took it and I got involved, in like a Berny Madoff kind of scheme because he didn’t know how to tell, you know, his mom and everybody what was going on.

Investigator: You’re lucky.

Dalia Dippolito: With what?

Investigator: You’re lucky you went to the gym.

Dalia Dippolito: We were supposed to go to the gym.

Investigator: Oh, both you were supposed to go?

Dalia Dippolito: He didn’t know if he was going. He just had liposuction. He had, like, two love handles removed from here. He had something little.

Investigator: Yeah.

Dalia Dippolito: And um, two weeks ago he had surgery and he had…

Investigator: What kind of surgery?

Dalia Dippolito: [inaudible]. Like, the lipo that he had.

Investigator: Oh, did he used to be real heavy or something?

Dalia Dippolito: No, he used to be then he got lipo done then the last surgeon I guess he left two bulges here. So yesterday he went because he had like, blood build up in his back.

Investigator: Oh.

Dalia Dippolito: So they drained it.

Investigator: Oh okay.

Dalia Dippolito: But he was like “well, depending on how I feel today”, but we go every morning. We haven’t gone since surgery but every morning at 5 am work out [inaudible].

Investigator: [noise of surprise]

Dalia Dippolito: Yeah.

Investigator: That’s a lot of, better than me. I wish I could go, obviously.

Dalia Dippolito: Well, you know, he’s very, um, he used to be a drug addict and…

Investigator: What was his drug of choice?

Dalia Dippolito: Crack.

Investigator: Crack? That’ll do it to you.

Dalia Dippolito: And um, he’s  recovering alcoholic so with him it’s really important to be on schedule, you know what I mean, like have a system and very organized with everything and…

Investigator: Lets, lets get back to, um, his, his death. Um, I don’t know if you know he was shot. He was shot twice. And I want you to know all this.

Detective Anderson: Do you know this?

Investigator: Did they tell you out there?

Dalia Dippolito: Not exactly. I mean, they told me he was shot. When I was at the gym I got a phone call I didn’t hear my phone ring and I called back and they told me just to please come, that something happened at me house.

Investigator: Yeah. Evidently your husband answered the door and they took him back upstairs and in the bedroom…

Dalia Dippolito: He has cameras though, why would he answer the door?

Investigator: I don’t…

Dalia Dippolito: Because doesn’t answer the door for anybody he doesn’t know.

Investigator: I have no…

Dalia Dippolito: And I mean the only person, like his probation officer is like the only, you know what I mean?

Investigator: I have no idea.

Dalia Dippolito: He would not have answered the door. We have cameras, like, at our house.

Investigator: Maybe he knows this person. I didn’t know you had cameras [cross talk] because when we got there, some of your neighbors heard the commotion.

Dalia Dippolito: We have cameras. The front door has cameras…

Investigator: Well, that’s great.

Dalia Dippolito: …the back door has cameras…

Investigator: Then…

Dalia Dippolito: …but they don’t record.

Investigator: They don’t record?

Dalia Dippolito: Nobody knows, but they don’t. We told everybody they record but they don’t record.

Investigator: Oh God.

Dalia Dippolito: Because he didn’t want them to make a hole in the garage for the recorder to be there because of his car.

Investigator: Well, when we got there the doors were wide open. When the officers got there the doors were wide open. They went in and looked, you have a, they said there was two dogs in the house like in a crate or a cage or something like that and um, uh, he was found in the bedroom. Shot twice in the head.

Dalia Dippolito: He wouldn’t open the door unless it’s somebody that he knows because [crosstalk] we don’t open for anybody.

Investigator: You have to understand, I wasn’t there, and neither was he, we have other people there so maybe it was, maybe somebody broke into the house or something, I don’t know. I haven’t been to the scene yet.

Dalia Dippolito: All of our rooms have TVs and we look specifically like to make sure nothing is happening because we’ve had drug incidences and things like that.

Detective Anderson: Was he asleep when you left?

Dalia Dippolito: No. We said, sort of but not really because of his back he was kind of like…

Investigator: Laying there?

Dalia Dippolito: … he was just laying there and he set the alarm and you know? But, I mean….

Investigator: There was no alarm…

Dalia Dippolito: … I said goodbye and you know, I’ll bring you coffee on my way home and you know, normal. Everything normal.

Investigator: There was no alarm, there was no alarm sound going off.

Dalia Dippolito: I put the, our little dogs downstairs and he stayed upstairs with the big dog.

Detective Anderson: How big is the dog?

Dalia Dippolito: It’s an English Bulldog but he doesn’t do anything…

Investigator: Would he bite somebody?

Dalia Dippolito: No. He loves everybody. I mean, he will run off with anybody he sees. The one that’s very aggressive and mean is the white one.

Investigator: It’s probably the smallest one in the house.

Dalia Dippolito: [inaudible] like, four-pound dog.

Investigator: Thinks he weighs 200 lbs right? Um…

Dalia Dippolito: I’m just trying to …

Investigator: Yeah, I’m going, I’m going, what I’m going to do right now…

Dalia Dippolito: There’s a lot that, like, I want to tell you..

Investigator: I’m going to be back but what I’m going to do is call, right now I’m going to go out and get in touch with the officers on the scene and want to see if the house has been burglarized.

Dalia Dippolito: Okay.

Investigator: Alright. Give me one second.

Dalia Dippolito: Okay.

Investigator: You want to wait here?

[Investigator and Detective Anderson exit room]

Investigator: Can you close the door please?

[door shuts]

Investigator: [heard through wall] Can somebody, can somebody call out there and see if there was, if the place was burglarized or anything? Alright.

Dalia Dippolito: [crying] Oh my God.

Investigator: [more conversation through wall, inaudible] Hey, somebody, somebody call out there and see if the place was burglarized or anything? (I’ll take care of it) [inaudible] Will you let me know? You know [inaudible] alarm system [inaudible]bedroom. Let’s just find out if that house was broken into from the front, back, how it went because she says her husband would not let anybody in that house. [inaudible] Okay. Thank you, I appreciate it.

[investigator returns]

Investigator: Go ahead and have it, drink some water. You know that I have advised you of your rights, right?

Dalia Dippolito: Yes, you have.

Investigator: Okay, the game’s over with. Okay? There’s no more games, with you and I. Now, we’re going to get down to serious business. Want to know if you know this guy.

[Investigator opens door]

Investigator: Come here. Bring this guy in here. Get over here. Get over here.

[man walks into room hand-cuffed]

Investigator: Do you know who this guy is?

Dalia Dippolito: No.

Investigator: You’ve never seen him before?

Dalia Dippolito: I’ve never seen him before. Never.

Investigator: Do you know her?

Man: [inaudible]

Detective Anderson: Put your head up and look at her.

Investigator: Put your head up.

Dalia Dippolito: I’ve never seen him.

Investigator: What were you doing coming out of her house? Get him out of here. You’re going to jail today for solicitation of murder. You’re under arrest. That’s an undercover police officer. We’ve known everything that you did, recorded everything that you did. You’re going to jail for solicitation of first degree murder of your husband.

Dalia Dippolito: I didn’t do anything.

Investigator: Did you hear what I just told you?

Dalia Dippolito: I heard what you said but I …

Investigator: Everything, listen to me, everything has been recorded. You were photographed in the convertible when you sat in his car in front of CVS. What do you want to do?

Dalia Dippolito: Oh my God.

Investigator: What do you want to do here, Dalia?

Dalia Dippolito: I didn’t do anything.

Investigator: [Inaudble] Listen to me…

Dalia Dippolito: I didn’t do anything.

Investigator: …you’re going to jail.

Dalia Dippolito: I didn’t do anything, please, I didn’t do anything.

Investigator: Tell me you didn’t do anything.

Dalia Dippolito: I didn’t do anything.

Investigator:  You’re going to jail today. As soon as I’m done…

Dalia Dippolito: Oh my God.

Investigator: …they’re going to come in here and hand cuff you and take you to the Palm Beach County Jail, book you for solicitation of first-degree murder on your husband. Your husband is well and alive.

Dalia Dippolito: Thank God.

Investigator:  Oh yeah. Thank that.

Dalia Dippolito: Can I, can I see him, please?

Investigator: You don’t want to see him.

Dalia Dippolito: I just want to see him, please.

Investigator:  He doesn’t want to see you.

Dalia Dippolito: Please.

Investigator: You better quit your playing. Listen to me…

Dalia Dippolito: Oh my God.

Investigator: I want you to quit your acting and get this over with.

Dalia Dippolito: I’m not.

Investigator: Yes you are.

Dalia Dippolito: I’m not.

Investigator:  Okay, you know what? You need a real good attorney, you need a real good attorney because we’re going to show them this film where you say you are five thousand percent sure you want him dead. You think I made that up? You think I made that up? Exactly is what’s gonna happen. I’m done talking with you. When I leave this room, no other officer will ever talk to you again. The next time we see you is when you’re in trial. And you can make it right here, or you’re going to trial and you’re going to do life in prison. You want to cooperate with us, whatever you want to do. It’s over and done once I walk out. I’m not coming back in talk to you and no one else is either. What do you want to do before I leave here? Because the next officer that comes here is going to hand cuff you and take you to the jail.

Dalia Dippolito: I want to see my husband, please.

Investigator: Nope, he doesn’t want to see you. He doesn’t want to see you. I’m leaving now. Can you have an officer come here and cuff this, the person?

Dalia Dippolito: I don’t know what’s going on, please.

Investigator: Go ahead and arrest her for solicitation of first degree murder.

Dalia Dippolito: [inaudible crying]

Officer 1: [inaudble] stand up.

Officer 2: Stand up, please.

Dalia Dippolito: Oh my God.

Officer 1: Sit back down.

Investigator: Here, stand right here. You can stay right there.

Dalia Dippolito: Oh my God!

Investigator: He’s alive!

Dalia Dippolito: Come here, please. Come here, Mike, come here. Come here. Please. Come here.

Husband: Can’t. Can’t.

Dalia Dippolito: Why can’t you? I didn’t do anything!

Investigator: I heard you!

Dalia Dippolito: Mike, come here please! Come here.

Investigator: Okay. Thanks. Take her back to booking please.

Dalia Dippolito: Oh my God.

Officer 1: Common’.

[second interview]

Investigator 2: Your first name is Dalia?

Dalia Dippolito: [nods]

Investigator 2: Okay.

Investigator 3: That how you pronounce it, Dalia?

Dalia Dippolito: [nods]

Investigator 2: Have you been advised of your rights before? That a yes? Your Miranda Rights…

Dalia Dippolito: Yes, but I wanted to make a phone call.

Investigator 3: Okay, earlier this morning. I’m Sargent [inaudible] read you your rights from that card, right, and you understood your Miranda Rights? Your 5th Amendment rights?

Dalia Dippolito: Yeah, but I wanted to make a phone call.

Investigator 3: Okay, so well, phone call. We’ll be willing to do that later, not right now though.

Dalia Dippolito: But while I’m still here?

Investigator 3: Um, yeah, later on we will. Okay? [cross talk]

Investigator 2: Now, did you understand your rights?

Dalia Dippolito: [shakes head ‘no’]

Investigator 2: You didn’t understand them?

Dalia Dippolito: I wasn’t really paying attention. [inaudible]

Investigator 2: Okay. Okay. What I’ll do is read them again. If you have any questions, just go ahead and ask me and I’ll explain them to you. Okay. You have the right to reman silent and not answer any questions, do you understand that?

Dalia Dippolito: [nods]

Investigator 2: I need a yes or a no.

Dalia Dippolito: Yeah.

Investigator 2: Any, any statement you make must be freely and voluntarily given. Do you understand that?

Dalia Dippolito: Yes.

Investigator 2: You have the right to the presence and representation of a lawyer of your choice before you make any statements and during any questioning. Do you understand that?

Dalia Dippolito: So, when you start asking, in the middle if it starts getting uncomfortable then I can have my attorney, is that what you’re saying?

Investigator 3: It’s your right to remain silent and request a lawyer. Yes. Okay. Do you understand that?

Dalia Dippolito: [nods]

Investigator 3: Yes, right?

Dalia Dippolito: Yes. Sorry.

Investigator 2: Yes. Okay. If you can not afford a lawyer you are entitled to the presence and representation of a court appointed lawyer before you make any statements or during any questioning. Do you understand that?

Dalia Dippolito: Yeah.

Investigator 2: If at any time during our interview you do not wish to answer any questions, you’re privileged to remain silent. Do you understand that?

Dalia Dippolito: Yes.

Investigator 2: I can’t make any threats or promises to induce you to make any statements, this must be of your own free will.

Dalia Dippolito: Yes.

Investigator:  Okay. Any statement can and will be used against you in court of law. Do you understand that?

Dalia Dippolito: Yeah.

Investigator 2: Have her sign here again?

Investigator 3: No.

Investigator 2: Okay. Is this your signature?

Dalia Dippolito: Yeah.

Investigator 2: Okay.

Investigator 3:  Okay. So you understand your 5th Amendment Rights, now, all of them?

Dalia Dippolito: Yeah.

Investigator 3: Okay. Um…

Dalia Dippolito: Can I go to the regular restroom, please, before we start? Is it okay?

Investigator 3: Can you… is it an emergency?

Dalia Dippolito: I didn’t feel comfortable in the other one.

Investigator 3:  Okay.

Dalia Dippolito: I’m sorry, I…

Investigator 3: No problem, no problem. She has to go to the bathroom.

Investigator 2: Okay, then we’ll come back and I’ll talk to the lawyer and….

Dalia Dippolito: Thank you.

[all exits room]

[conversation between investigators about if someone needs to be in the bathroom with her, to leave the door open, and that one investigator needs to ask the questions]

[all enters room]

Dalia Dippolito: Thank you.

Investigator 2: You’re welcome.  Alright, mind if I call you Dalia?

Dalia Dippolito: Yeah, please do.

Investigator 2:  Alright, um, you understand what happened today? What’s going on here?

Dalia Dippolito: A little.

Investigator 2: Okay.

Dalia Dippolito: Now, slowly, I’m understanding a little bit better.

Investigator 2: What’s your understanding?

Dalia Dippolito: I was told one thing and now it’s totally like all these things are, like, I don’t, I mean, I don’t really know what happened.

Investigator 3:  Do you know that you are arrested today? You’re being arrested.

Dalia Dippolito: That part I understood.

Investigator 3:  Okay. Do you know what for?

Dalia Dippolito: Not really, no.

Investigator 3: [cross talk] the charge?

Dalia Dippolito: No, nobody…

Investigator 3: Go ahead, tell her the charge, Alex.

Dalia Dippolito: [sighs]

Investigator 2: Okay. You’re being arrested for soliciting to commit murder. Okay, and which that means is, is you attempted to hire someone to kill someone else. Meaning your husband. Okay? And that’s why you’re here and that’s what you’re being charged with.

Dalia Dippolito: [inaudible] No.

Investigator 2: No, you don’t understand or…

Dalia Dippolito: No, I never done that.

Investigator 3: Well, that’s what you’re being charged with.

Dalia Dippolito: Okay.

Investigator 3: And uh, we have plenty of evidence to back it up. Okay? So, with your rights in mind, we want to give you an opportunity to do some soul searching maybe and maybe get a lot off your chest and tell us the truth. That’s what we want to hear. I mean, this has been worked for a couple days now. It’s not just the first day we’ve been doing this, in reference to this case, and we have a lot of information to support our charge.  This is not what we’d call a quick little thing. So, we know when you’re lying to us and all of that, we just want to hear the truth. I mean, it’s done, it’s over with now. You know, and uh, this is your opportunity to tell us the truth. That’s all we want to hear, and we know the truth, so. I know it’s hard to commit to that but now’s your time, you know? You have anything to say about this?

Dalia Dippolito: I want to talk to my husband.

Investigator 3: Okay, well, you can’t talk to your husband. He’s not here right now. Let him go home. He’s taking care of the house and the dogs. Um, well, obviously your husband is alive. You saw him, right?

Dalia Dippolito: I saw him. I would like to talk to him.

Investigator 3: Okay, did and you seen that black officer that was here…

Dalia Dippolito: I…

Investigator 3: … in handcuffs. Well, he’s an officer. Okay? So, it doesn’t get any clearer than that. I mean, you know? I know it’s hard but…

Investigator 2: You know, people make mistakes sometimes, you know? The good thing about this whole thing is, that nobody got killed. Alright? The gentleman that walked into the room, he said it’s an officer. Alright? It’s not the first day we’ve been working this, alright? It’s an ongoing investigation.  Where we have you talking to this guy. We’ve listened to every conversation you had. Alright? So now if you’re, you know, tell the truth and do the right thing, that’s, you know? That’s when you reach inside you and you know, “fuck we made mistakes”. You know, everybody makes mistakes. Um, but tragedy was prevented today. You could look at it that way. You know? That simple.

Investigator 3: A big tragedy. I mean, someone’s life. So. Everything is on tape, Dalia. There’s no denying it. You know? Everything’s on tape and that’s not a bluff so. Phone conversations and there’s some video, too, so.

Investigator 2: What are you thinking?

Dalia Dippolito: That I’d like to make a phone call. I just feel lost, I mean…

Investigator 3: Who do you want to call?

Dalia Dippolito: I’d like to call me mom.

Investigator 2: We’ll let you call your mom after this is done, I mean…

Dalia Dippolito: I mean I’m not, you know, I mean, everyone keeps coming and I’m signing all these things and going over all these things and I don’t really know what they’re for. I’m just signing it because everyone’s saying “well, you know, if you sign this we’ll help you” or “we’ll this” or “we’ll that” and…

Investigator 3: I don’t know about that but the only thing we, we’re concerned with is the rights card and we went over that twice.

Dalia Dippolito: [crosstalk] came and I guess that may have been for release of the tape earlier, I don’t know because he never came back and I signed something and I don’t really know what it was.

Investigator 2: Okay, well…

Dalia Dippolito: I mean, I was hysterical like when he came and…

Investigator 3: [crosstalk] I’m sorry, go ahead, Alex.

Investigator 2: And that’s understandable, okay? Our main concern right now is the fact that a crime, with, you know, you actually, you got to understand this, okay. Dalia, listen to me for a second, okay?

Dalia Dippolito: I didn’t do anything.

Investigator 2: Listen to me for a second, okay? This is not our first day, okay? It’s definitely not our second day, alright? It’s an ongoing investigation, alright? Not only do we have you on video tape, we have every conversation that you’ve had leading to this point, alright? So for you to sit here and deny. that you haven’t done anything is not going to help, alright? Cause we know the, we know the whole story from the beginning to the end to this point that we’re at right here right now, alright? Everything that you’ve done since this started, we’ve been involved in it. Do you understand that?

Dalia Dippolito: I understand what you guys are saying and I’m not trying to lie to you or anything.

Investigator 2: Okay, well, I’m just [crosstalk] I’m not making, I mean, I’m just telling you the truth. That’s the truth. Alright?

Dalia Dippolito: I just want to go home.

Investigator 2: Well, unfortunately you’re not going home. Okay? You’re looking at some serious charges here. Do you understand that you made the attempt to hire somebody to kill your husband? That’s how serious this is. Okay, you can sit here and shake your head and deny it but, I’m going to tell you right now, alright, when they, when the judge and the jury see that video tape of this conversation making a deal, alright? That’s how far you went. Alright? It not about denying it, “it wasn’t me I didn’t do anything” because the video, the audio, it’s not going to lie. And all of the evidence we collected in this evidence.

Investigator 3: You sound like a fool denying all of this because like my partner just said, everything’s on tape. Video and audio.

Dalia Dippolito: I just want to go home.

Investigator 3:  I know but you’re not going home. You see? You’re being arrested so you’re not going home.

Dalia Dippolito: What do I have to do to go home? I’d just like to go home.

Investigator 3: I know but you can’t, it’s impossible. You’re going to the Palm Beach County Jail after this. You can’t go home. You’re being arrested. This is not a game. In your mind it might be a little game but this is very serious. Murder? You kidding me? Try to have someone kill…

[tape ends]

Daniel Hernandez (6ix 9ine) Partial Testimony Transcript

 

6ix 9ineDaniel Hernandez is a rap artist who goes by the names 6ix 9ine and Tekashi69. On November 18th, 2018, Hernandez and four associates were arrested and charged with RICO and firearms charges which could have led to a sentence of life in prison. In February, as part of a plea deal that may allow Hernandez to avoid jail time if he testifies against fellow gang members, he pled guilty to 9 charges. These charges included one count of racketeering, four counts of firearm charges, two counts of assault with a dangerous weapon, one count of attempted murder, and one count of conspiracy to distribute one kilogram or more of heroin. One of the associates Hernandez is testifying against, Anthony (Harv) Ellison, had robbed Hernandez at gun point of several hundred thousand dollars’ worth of jewelry, kidnapped, and beaten him a week prior to his arrest.  The following is a small portion of his testimony transcription. More will be added as it is released.

Daniel Hernandez Partial Testimony Transcript

Daniel Hernandez: D-A-N-I-E-L space H-E-R-N-A-N-D-E-Z

Judge: Alright, good afternoon. I’ll ask you please keep your voice up and speak slowly for the benefit of everybody in the court room. Counsel, you may inquire.

Lawyer 1: Thank you, your honor.  Good Afternoon, Mr. Hernandez.

Daniel Hernandez: Thank you.

Lawyer 1: Mr. Hernandez, how old are you?

Daniel Hernandez: 23.

Lawyer 1: Do you go by any other names?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes.

Lawyer 1: What are those names?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, Tekashi, Tekashi Six Nine, um, [inaudible]. Yeah.

Lawyer 1: Mr. Hernandez, where were you born?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, [inaudible] Brooklyn.

Lawyer 1: How far did you go in school?

Daniel Hernandez: About the tenth, uh, eleventh grade. Something like that.

Lawyer 1: Mr. Hernandez, are you currently in federal custody?

Daniel Hernandez:  Yes, sir.

Lawyer 1: Approximately when did you start living in federal custody?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, about, no, um, November 18th, 2018.

Lawyer 1: What were you arrested for?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, racketeering charges, um, you know, violent crimes; shootings, uh, drug distribution.

Lawyer 1: At some point did you decide to cooperate with the government?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes.

Lawyer 1: When did that happen?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, a day after, um, November 19th, the day after, uh, we, we was taken down.

Lawyer 1: In connection with your cooperation have you pleaded guilty to certain crimes?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes.

Lawyer 1: What crimes did you plea guilty to?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, I believe it was nine counts of racketeering, um, shootings, uh, and, and drug distribution.

Lawyer 1: And you listed racketeering as one of the crimes in which you pleaded guilty, were you a member of any gang?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes, sir.

Lawyer 1: What was the name of the gang you were a member of?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, the Nine Trey Bloods, Nine Trey [inaudible].

Lawyer 1: Approximately when did you become a member?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, around, uh, I would say November of 2017.

Lawyer 1: What sorts of things did Nine Trey members do?

Daniel Hernandez: I’m sorry?

Lawyer 1: What sorts of things did Nine Trey members do?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, we participated in a lot of, uh, you know, violent crimes. Um, robberies, assaults, uh, drugs. Sorts of that nature.

Lawyer 1: Mr. Hernandez, do you recognize anyone in the court room who was a member of Nine Trey when you were a member?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes.

Lawyer 1: Who do you recognize? And if you could identify that person, uh, could you identify where they are sitting at or an article of clothing that that person may be wearing?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, Harv, Anthony Ellison has a grey suit. Um, and uh Nuke, Aljermiah Mach, has the brown suit on with the white thing on his head.

Lawyer 1: Your honor, could the record reflect that the witness identified Mr.Mack and Mr. Ellison?

Judge: Yes, the record reflects that Mr. um, um, Hernandez in sequence identified Mr. Ellison and then Mr. Mack.

Lawyer 1: Thank you, your honor. Now, Mr. Hernandez, now we will turn back to Nine Trey in a minute. Before we do, I would like to ask you some questions about your life before Nine Trey. Where did you grow up?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, I was raised and lived, uh [inaudible] Brooklyn.

Lawyer 1: Where did you go to school?

Daniel Hernandez: Um, for elementary I went to PS59, uh middle school [inaudible] and uh, high school for the time being I went to Legacy High School. Legacy. Yeah. Legacy High School.

Lawyer 1: Did you work?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes.

Lawyer 1: What did you do?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, started working at, I want to say, the age of thirteen. Uh, my first job was at the Green Point Youth Court. It’s a job that handles like, misdemeanor cases for youth. Um, where the youth acts in like a band of judge, jury, youth advocate, community advocate, that type of thing. I did that about for two months, uh, no, no.

Lawyer 1: Mr. Hernandez, I’m going to cut you off. I think you are, uh, speaking so close to the mic that you’re blurring some of words. If you move back a tiny bit from the mic but keep your voice up and speak slowly. Thank you.

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, so I did that for about a year. Um, I didn’t make a lot of money doing that, so I started working with my brother. Uh, bussing tables. I did that for about a year and a half. Then I got at a job at grocery store named “Stay Fresh and Grill”. Worked as a delivery boy. I did that about two years. Uh, I worked up to register. Shortly after that, I landed another bus boy job and then after that became a rapper.

Lawyer 1: So, you said that you started a music career, is that right?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes.

Lawyer 1: Approximately when did that happen?

Daniel Hernandez: Let’s say around 2014. Uh…

Lawyer 1: And how did it come about?

Daniel Hernandez: Well, at the store I was working in, Stay Fresh and Grill, uh, it was a guy under the name Peter Rodger, always coming in there buying a tea and a tilapia, some peanuts, stuff like that. He asked me, uh, if I, if I make music and if I rap. Uh, and I was like “no” and he was like “you got the image for it, you look, you look cool”. I was like, you know, I took that into consideration. Then we started making music from the, from the deli.

Lawyer 1: And again, this is around 2014?

Daniel Hernandez:  Yes sir, like late 2014. Like September.

Lawyer 1: So, when you started making music around 2014, what type of music were you making?

Daniel Hernandez: It was more of like a rock ‘n’ roll, uh, rap.

Lawyer 1: Approximately how many records or songs did you release?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, eight I believe. I believe around eight.

Lawyer 1: Did you go on any tours?

Daniel Hernandez: Yeah.

Lawyer 1: Where did you tour?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, Eastern Europe. Um, I toured in um, Bratislava, Slovakia, Bratislava, Slovakia. Uh, Prague, Czech Republic, Brno Czech Republic, uh, St. Petersburg Russia and uh Moscow.

Lawyer 1: Were you making any money at this time as a, as a metal rap performer?

Daniel Hernandez: Um, I mean for all those shows I made about like $2000 profit. I, I did it just for the experience.

Lawyer 1: Now, Mr. Hernandez, did there come a time when the type of music you recorded change?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes.

Lawyer 1: Approximately when did that happen?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, around, uh, it changed, in September 2017.

Lawyer 1: Now, directing your attention to September 2017, did there come a time when you filmed a music video in Brooklyn?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes, sir.

Lawyer 1: Where in Brooklyn?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, Bedford-Stuyvesant Brooklyn, um, on Madison between uh, Tompkins Avenue and Troop.

Lawyer 1: Do you remember the address?

Daniel Hernandez: I believe, want to say it was 370 Madison.

Lawyer 1:  370?

Daniel Hernandez: 370.

Lawyer 1: Mrs. Horney, Can we please pull up for the witness what’s been marked for identification as government exhibit 202? Mr. Hernandez, do you see government exhibit 202?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes.

Lawyer 1: What is that?

Daniel Hernandez: 370 Madison.

Lawyer 1: Is that a photograph of 370 Madison?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes, sir.

Lawyer 1: Fairly and accurately depict how 370 Madison looked?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes, sir.

Lawyer 1: Your honor, government offers government exhibit 202.

Judge: Any objection?

Lawyer 2: None, your honor.

[cross talk]

Judge: Proceed.

Lawyer 1: May we publish it, your honor?

Judge: Yes.

Lawyer 1: So, you filmed the music video in front of 370 Madison?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes, sir.

Lawyer 1: What was the name of that song?

Daniel Hernandez: Gummo. Gummo. G-U-M-M-O.

Lawyer 1: Mr. Hernandez, how did the filming of Gummo come about?

Daniel Hernandez: Um, around August of 2017 I made the song Gummo.

[missing portion]

Lawyer 1: Mr. Hernandez, I’m going to ask you some questions about the lyrics of Gummo, uh, beginning with the first line in reference to the word “blicky”. What’s a “blicky”?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, “blicky” is another word for a gun.

Lawyer 1: And in the second line there’s a phrase in the middle, “drum, it holds 50”, what is that in reference to?

Daniel Hernandez: A drum is an attachment you add to a gun. Carries an, uh, extra clips. Bullets.

Lawyer 1: Turning to the next stanza, the second line of the second stanza. Uh, there’s a line there “in the hood with them billy n-word, and them hoover n-word”, what is that in reference to?

Daniel Hernandez: Just me stating who, um, I’m around.

Lawyer 1: And, and what is “Billy”?

Daniel Hernandez: Billy is Nine Trey.

Lawyer 1: And Hoover?

Daniel Hernandez: Hoover is it’s own set. Like, their own thing.

Lawyer 1: And the last line, “No KB, you’re a loser n-word, up that Uzi n-word”, what is that in reference, who, first of all, what is KB?

Daniel Hernandez: KB is a, is a, uh, was like a body guard for, uh, another rapper named Trippy Red. So I stated “No, KB”, like if you didn’t have KB you would lose an n-word. “Up that Uzi” n-word. Uzi is another rapper that was related, that, uh, people compared to Trippy Red so I said if you don’t have KB watching over you, you will lose somebody and I’ll up the Uzi. It, I don’t know, I thought it was cool at the time.

Lawyer 1: Well, Mr. Hernandez, what was, what is Gummo about, generally speaking?

Daniel Hernandez: It’s, uh, it was actually a, a, a diss song. A diss song is like uh, something, how do I say, its a song towards, like,  someone I didn’t get along with. Best way I can describe it.

Lawyer 1: And who was the diss song aimed at?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, Trippy Red.

Lawyer 1: Why?

Daniel Hernandez: Me and him were signed to the same label, um, around, around 2017 when I signed my first deal. Me and Trippy Red were signed to the same label. Uh, he signed first. I then signed right after. There was a lot of jealousy involved. Um, a lot of arguments back and forth on social media. So, I made the song in, in, in the midst of the situation.

Lawyer 1: Did you have an understanding of whether or not Trippy Red was affiliated with a gang?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes.

Lawyer 1: And what gang was that?

Daniel Hernandez: He, he, he, uh, I think he was, say, he was part of five nine brim.

Lawyer 1: What’s five nine brim?

Daniel Hernandez: It’s another blood set.

Lawyer 1: Is that a rival set to Nine Trey?

Daniel Hernandez: Um, I mean it became another rival at the time.

Lawyer 1: So, um, okay, we can take down 60-17. So, Mr. Hernandez, after you had filmed Gummo, did there come a point, did there come a point in time where Gummo was released on the internet?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes.

Lawyer 1: What happened after Gummo was released on the internet?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, I think we released Gummo in about, in about October. Around October. Uh, Gummo became an instant, an instant sensation. It was a sensation. It went viral. Viral meaning people shared it. Uh, people, you know, came to like the video “Gummo”. They liked the song. So it was instant success I would say.

Lawyer 1: After the release of Gummo, did you have any other conversations with either Seiko or Shotti about doing another video?

Daniel Hernandez: Yeah.

Lawyer 1: About, about filming another video.

Daniel Hernandez: Um, yeah. So, so when I released Gummo I was in Los Angles. Uh, I wasn’t authorized to release the video with, with the label. Uh, so, I just put it out anyway. I just threw it up on YouTube and just said “whatever happens, happens.” When I uploaded the video and it was such, like, a lot of people was showing attention to it. Uh, Shotti actually called Seiko and said, uh, quote “this little nigga knows what he’s doing, um, I thought all that rainbow hair shit was um, you know, he was buggin’ for that but he knows what he’s doing. Tell him to stay in touch.”

Lawyer 1: What happened?

Daniel Hernandez: I stayed in touch.

Lawyer 1: Did there come a time where you, where you made another video?

Daniel Hernandez: Yeah, about a month after uh, we uh, we filmed Kooda. Um…

Lawyer 1: And so, and so how did the filming of Kooda come about? And I’m sorry, could you spell Kooda for the court reporter?

Daniel Hernandez: Kooda. K-O-O-D-A.

Lawyer 1: How did Kooda come about?

Daniel Hernandez: Well, after, after uh, after we shot Gummo um, I knew I had a formula. I knew the formula was, uh, to repeat it. You know what I’m saying? Uh…

Lawyer 1: To repeat what?

Daniel Hernandez: To repeat the, the, the gang, uh, how, what’s the word for it, the gang, um…image, I would say. Like, like promote it? You know what I’m saying? That’s what people liked so it was like, um… It was just a formula, a blueprint I found that worked. So, I told Shotti “I want to film”. At this time after Gummo came out. Not to skip over a lot of stuff, we became very close. So, I would hang out at 370 Madison a lot. Hang out with him, um, and uh, I asked him to, um, if, if it was a good idea to film Kooda. And uh, we started filming Kooda.

Lawyer 1: At approximately when, in relation to when Gummo was released, when did you film…

Daniel Hernandez: I would say late October, early November.

Lawyer 1: How did you come up with the name “Kooda”.

Daniel Hernandez: Kooda is actually a, um, another rapper. Before I changed my style of rap, I was into this kid named Kooda. Um, I always thought his, he was a talented kid. I actually liked him a lot, so I named my song after him.

Lawyer 1: Now, Ms. Horney, if we could please show for the witness what’s been marked for identification as government exhibit 23. Mr. Hernandez, what is government exhibit 23?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, it’s Kooda.

Lawyer 1: A picture of Kooda?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes, sir.

Lawyer 1: Fairly and accurately depicted what he looked like?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes, sir.

Lawyer 1:  Your honor, government offers government exhibits 23 and 23a.

Lawyer 2: No objections.

Judge: Received.

Lawyer 1: May we publish government exhibit 23?

Judge: Yes.

Lawyer 1: Thank you, Ms. Horney. Now, Mr. Hernandez, where was, uh, where was Kooda filmed?

Daniel Hernandez: Kooda was, Kooda was filmed um, in Brooklyn. Um, in the intersection of Fulton Avenue and Utica, I believe. Um, yeah. In like Crime Heights, Brooklyn.

Lawyer 1: Is there a housing development that’s around Utica and Fulton?

Daniel Hernandez: Yeah, uh, Smurf, Smurf Village.

Lawyer 1:  Does Smurf Village have any relationship to Nine Trey?

Daniel Hernandez: It’s, there’s Nine Trey members who live there.

Lawyer 1: Now, Mr. Hernandez, if you could turn, there’s a CD in front of you marked government exhibit 609. Ms. Horney, if we could open up just the opening frame. Prior to testimony did you review the contents of government exhibit 609?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes, sir.

Lawyer 1: What is, what is on 609?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, video of Kooda.

Lawyer 1: Is it all of Kooda or a portion?

Daniel Hernandez: A portion.

Lawyer 1:  And also, if you could please, Ms. Horney, pull up government exhibit 609 T. Do you see 609 T in front of you?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes.

Lawyer 1: And what’s 609 T?

Daniel Hernandez: It’s the beginning of Kooda.

Lawyer 1: The lyrics?

Daniel Hernandez: The lyrics, yeah.

Lawyer 1: Your honor, the government offers government exhibit 609T.

Judge: Uh…

Lawyer 2: No objections.

Judge: Received.

[cross talk]

Lawyer 1: …if I had offered government exhibit 609.

Judge: I think that had not been offered. Any objections?

Lawyer 2: No objections.

Judge: Received.

Lawyer 1: Thank you, your honor. Now, um, Ms. Horney, could you please publish and play exhibit 609.

Judge: Should the ladies and gentlemen of the jury, turn to 609 T, at this point?

Lawyer 1: Not at this point. I think we will watch the video and then we’ll turn to the lyrics.

Judge: Very good.

Lawyer 1: Thank you, Ms. Horney. If we could turn the volume down, uh, and as we with Gummo we’ll just go to certain clips in the video. And if we could go to about 20 seconds into the video. If we could go just a little [inaudible], I’m sorry. Start at 19 seconds. Play it. Stop. Mr. Hernandez, in the middle of the screen, who’s depicted there?

Daniel Hernandez: Seiko Billy.

Lawyer 1: And behind Seiko Billy in the, and I’m sorry, are you on the right side of the screen here? Are you depicted on the right side of the screen? Is that your arm?

Daniel Hernandez: That’s my hair, yeah. My arm.

Lawyer 1: And behind you, who’s behind you? Behind your arm? Did you see the…

Daniel Hernandez: Billy [inaudible]

Lawyer 1: Billy [inaudible]

Daniel Hernandez: Yeah.

Lawyer 1: Now, Ms. Horney, if we could, if we go to 30 seconds in the video… Who’s depicted, who’s depicted here, Mr. Hernandez?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, the guy in the red jacket, blue and white, is Midnight?

Lawyer 1: And who’s Midnight?

Daniel Hernandez: Midnight, um, from my understanding, when, um, I was first introduced to Nine Trey, he was um, he was the one who had, um, had the big homie status in Smurf Village. In the housing project across the street from Kooda.

Lawyer 1: Is he Nine Trey?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes, sir.

Lawyer 1: By “big homie” does that mean he had high ranking status?

Daniel Hernandez: From my understanding, yes.

Lawyer 1: Thank you, Ms. Horney, we can take down 609. If we could pull up, please, 609 T and zoom in on the uh, on the lyrics. And your honor, at this point [inaudible] the jury…

Judge: Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, please turn now to 609 T in your binders.

Lawyer 1: Mr. Hernandez, the first line n – word running out they mouth but they never pop out, what is that [something slams]

Daniel Hernandez: Well, the whole, the whole paragraph of, uh, it speaks about, uh, well the first line, actually it’s about, I wanted to address all the controversy that was going on, um, after Gummo was released. A lot of people didn’t understand it.

Lawyer 1: Didn’t understand what?

Daniel Hernandez: Didn’t understand how uh, I guess a kid with rainbow hair could be affiliated with Nine Trey Bloods. It just didn’t mix. So, um, the first line is “n – word running out they mouth but they never pop out”. Just in general speaking. Um like, people, if you replace “n-word” with “people”, “people running out they mouth but they never pop out”. So that’s what I meant by it.

Lawyer 1: And again, what was the, the genesis of Kooda? Why, why, why did you make Kooda? Was it in response to anything?

Daniel Hernandez: Yeah, it was a response to everything. Ah, all, all the back lash from, uh, the public. To um, you know, just, the, the, the Trippy Red stuff going on, everything, other rappers talking, you know?

Lawyer 1: In the third line it reads “all my n-word on 50 so you know we hopped out”, the phrase “on 50”, what does that mean?

Daniel Hernandez: “On 50” is to be on point. Like to be aware.

Lawyer 1: Is that, is that, a, a term associated with Nine Trey or Bloods in general?

Daniel Hernandez: Uh, bloods in general. I, I mean I just think gangs…

Lawyer 2: Objection, leading.

Lawyer 1: I’m sorry.

Judge: One moment. Sustained.

Lawyer 1: Mr. Hernandez, uh, the term “on 50”, um, how do you know about that term?

Daniel Hernandez: Well, I, I was taught about all, um, you know, well not all the terms. I learned a couple, uh, just talking with Seiko Billy and “on 50” um, you know?

Lawyer 1: Did you talk to, did you talk to other people?

Daniel Hernandez: Yeah, Shotti.

Lawyer 1: And what did they teach you?

Daniel Hernandez: Well, uh, after Kooda, uh…

Lawyer 1: Ah, I’m sorry, before Kooda, as you were writing Kooda…

Daniel Hernandez: Okay, yeah.

Lawyer 1: …[inaudible] some of the terms in the lyrics, how did you come about drafting those lyrics or coming up with those lyrics?

Daniel Hernandez: Well, me and my best friend Andrew, we write together. Uh, but you know, I would spend a lot of time, you know, with Nine Trey at 370 Maddison, always “on 50” or…

Lawyer 1: So, based on your time with Nine Trey did you learn any of their lingo or words that they used?

Daniel Hernandez: Say that one more time?

Lawyer 1: Based on your time that you spent with members of Nine Trey, did you learn about some of their lingo or words that they used?

Daniel Hernandez: Correct.

Lawyer 1: Is “on 50” one of those terms?

Daniel Hernandez: Yes.

Lawyer 1: And what does “on 50” mean?

Daniel Hernandez: To be aware.

Lawyer 1: On the next line, line 4, it reads “mobbed out, opps out, we gonna show what we about”, what are you talking about in that line?

Daniel Hernandez: So, in this line I’m saying, um, mob, mobbed out, like, mob. Referencing like, when we’re in large numbers and we’re, you know, mobbed out. “Opps out” is like opposition. Like the opps. The opposition, our opposition, our opps. So we’re mobbed out, there’s opps out, we gon’ show what we about.

Lawyer 1: Thank you, Ms. Horney. We can take down 609 T.

Judge:  Mr. [inaudible] are you done with the examination of this exhibit?

Lawyer 1: Yes, I am.

Judge: Alright. I am looking for a natural break point because I understand the Juror’s uh, uh [inaudible] Alright ladies and gentlemen….

Jerrod Murray Case Summary

In December 2012, Generro Sanchez was murdered by another student at East Central University, Jerrod Murray. Although Sanchez lived down the hall from Murray, they only knew one another through a mutual friend. Murray asked Sanchez for a ride to a nearby Wal-Mart. Upon their arrival, Murray pulled a gun out and demanded to be driven to a town North of Ada.

Generro Sanchez

To calm Sanchez’s nerves, Murray unloaded the clip and the bullet from the chamber and handed them to Sanchez, only to pull out another clip and lay it on his lap. After a 29-mile drive, they arrive on a small road in the country where Murray shot Sanchez in the head as he drove. The vehicle came to a stop in a ditch against a tree. After pulling his body from the vehicle, Murray heard agonal breathing from Sanchez. To ensure he was dead, he shot him in the head again. Murray then pushed his body down into the ditch and poorly covered his body with leaves, dirt, and a single stick.

Murray

In the interrogation Murray shows no remorse and gives no reason for the murder besides “it popped in my head”. He had been planning to murder someone for about three weeks and decided Generro Sanchez was going to be the victim a few days prior. Murray was later found not guilty by reason of insanity and has been held in a mental facility since. Murray has filed motions asking the Court to consider his release from the facility he is in to less restrictive care. The judge in the case ruled that Murray remains a threat to society and is dangerous, denying the motions.

Jerrod Murray Interrogation Transcript

In December 2012, Generro Sanchez was murdered by another student at East Central University, Jerrod Murray. Although Sanchez lived down the hall from Murray, they only knew one another through a mutual friend. Murray asked Sanchez for a ride to a nearby Wal-Mart. Upon their arrival, Murray pulled a gun out and demanded to be driven to a town North of Ada. On a small road in the country, Murray shot Sanchez in the head as he drove. In the interrogation Murray shows no remorse and was later found not guilty by reason of insanity. The case summary can be found here.

Jerrod Murray Interrogation Transcript

[Door opens]

Investigator: Ready? Okay Jerrod. Now, my name is Sherriff [inaudible] Palmer. And me and you met on the side of State Highway 177 and [inaudible] road at about 3:12 this morning, didn’t we?

Jerrod Murray: Yes sir.

Investigator: Okay. And at that time, you made a couple of statements to me when I put you down on the ground and then after we got up, I read your rights to you, correct?

Jerrod Murray: Ah, you read my rights before I got up, sir.

Investigator: Okay. Before you got up off the ground.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: But you did make a couple of statements…

Jerrod Murray: Yes sir, I made some statements, sir.

Investigator: Before I read you your rights without me asking you anything.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Um, you just, you told me you were the guy I was trying to find.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Okay, and then I read your rights to you.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And those rights were – you have the right to remain silent…

Jerrod Murray: The Miranda Rights, sir.

Investigator: Okay. Anything you say can and will be used against you in court…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: You have the right to talk to an attorney and have them present while being questioned.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And if you do not afford to hire one, one will be appointed to represent you.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And I asked you then if you wanted to talk to me.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And you agreed to talk.

Jerrod Murray: Ah, at the time I said no but, didn’t I?

Investigator: No. I read your rights to you…

Jerrod Murray: But when you asked if I wished to talk to you about it…

Investigator: You said you didn’t know, and then…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, that’s right.

Investigator: And then you said “yes, I already told you so…

Jerrod Murray: Yes.

Investigator: I might as well. Is that correct?

Jerrod Murray: Yes.

Investigator: Okay. After that, during that drop do you remember what you told me after I read your Miranda warning to you?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, not word for word but the effect, yes.

Investigator: Okay. What do you remember telling me?

Jerrod Murray: uh, in summation that I’m guilty, yes.

Investigator: Of what?

Jerrod Murray: Of murder.

Investigator: And who did you murder?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, Generro.

Investigator: Okay, and how did you murder him?

Jerrod Murray: With a gun. I shot him in the head, twice. Three shots were fired. One missed.

Investigator: And where did you shoot, where was this, where did this happen at?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, around five miles north of Asher, Oklahoma, on a side road.

Investigator: Do you know what that side road is called?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: Do you know what’s on the corner of that side road?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, power, uh station, sir.

Investigator: Like a substation…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir. [cross talk]

Investigator: Okay, and does that road go all the way through?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir. It turns, uh, left.

Investigator: Okay and you have knowledge of this?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Are you from that area?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And your mom and dad’s house isn’t too far from there?

Jerrod Murray: Um, maybe a half a mile to three quarters of a mile, sir.

Investigator: Okay and can you get to your mom and dad’s house by going down that road?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, yes, sir.

Investigator: Okay, um, and you [inaudiable] shot this guy while he was driving his pickup down the road.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Okay. Okay. And that’s basically what you told me on the side of the road.

Jerrod Murray: In summation, yes, sir.

Investigator: And in fact, we did find, we had already found the pickup and there was a body next to it in a ditch.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Okay. And that’s what we’re going to talk about now. Is that…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Are you okay with that?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: So you’re agreeing to talk to me again?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Okay. Give me your full name.

Jerrod Murray: Jerrod Landreth Wayne Murray.

Investigator: And what’s your date of birth?

Jerrod Murray: July the twentieth, 1994.

Investigator: Okay, and do you live and dad?

Jerrod Murray: Hm?

Investigator: Do you stay with your mom and dad?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, no.  I lived in the dormitories in college. Before then I lived with my grandparents in town.

Investigator: In town of Asher?

Jerrod Murray: Yes.

Investigator: Okay, um, what do you use for an address?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, the, my parents house, yes.

Investigator: And what is that?

Jerrod Murray: Four hundred, four-zero-zero-five-five Ingram Drive. Ah, Asher, Oklahoma 78426.

Investigator: Ingram?

Jerrod Murray: Yes. I-N-G-R-A-M

Investigator: I-M-G

Jerrod Murray: I-N-G-R-A-M

Investigator: Okay, um, and so you go to school at East Central?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And is this your first year of college?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: So, you’re a freshman at East Central.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And you said you stay at some dorms?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And what’s the name of your dorm?

Jerrod Murray: Pesagi Dormitory, sir.

Investigator: Can you spell that for me?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, P-E-S-A-G-I, I believe, sir.

Investigator: T-E-S-A-G-I?

Jerrod Murray: P-E-S…

Investigator: P-E-S…

Jerrod Murray: uh, A-G-I.

Investigator: Okay, and that’s in Ada.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And the young man, that you said to me you shot twice in the head…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And his name, do you know his whole name?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, no, sir. I only know his first name.

Investigator: And his first name is what?

Jerrod Murray: Generro. I do not know how to spell that but it is with a “G”.

Investigator: Okay. And do you go to school with him?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And do you stay in the same dorm?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, the same building, sir.

Investigator: Same building. And what’s your dorm number?

Jerrod Murray: 463D.

Investigator: 463B?

Jerrod Murray: D.

Investigator: D?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Do you know his?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, no. But I know it’s in “E” section.

Investigator: E section. And how do you know him?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, towards the beginning of the year we met in a mutual friend’s room, uh, playing video games, sir.

Investigator: Okay. And do you take any classes with him?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: So, you know him through a mutual friend and you guys dormed in the same dorm.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Different sections.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir, but it’s literally right down the hall.

Investigator: Okay. So, you spend quite a bit of time together?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, no, sir.

Investigator: Okay. Okay. Um, the pickup that was, he was in tonight and you was in. Was that his pickup or your pickup?

Jerrod Murray: I’m fairly sure it was his, sir.

Investigator: Okay. And you remember what kind of pickup that was?

Jerrod Murray: Um, black. [laughs] I’m sorry. I don’t…

Investigator: Okay, you don’t…

Jerrod Murray: I don’t know much about cars.

Investigator: Okay. But single cab…

Jerrod Murray: Single cab, black, uh, dent on the passenger side.

Investigator: Okay and can you go back and tell me how you guys hooked up tonight? Or [cross talk] this is actually, we’re talking right now at, we’re at almost 6 o’clock in the morning so can you go back and tell me when you guys would have gotten together?

Jerrod Murray: Maybe around [clears throat], maybe around 9 o’ clock yesterday evening.

Investigator: So, on the fifth.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, uh, maybe it was closer to ten.

Investigator: Okay. Nine to ten. And how did you guys hook up?

Jerrod Murray: I went down to his dorm room and asked if I could be given a ride to Wal-Mart in exchange for $20 gas money.

Investigator: Okay. Did he agree to that?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Okay. And did he, in fact, take you to Wal-Mart?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir. We got in his pickup truck and he drove me to Wal-Mart.

Investigator: So, you’re talking about the Wal-Mart in Ada?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Okay, and that’s a couple miles from the school?

Jerrod Murray: Uh. 2.2, ah, no, 1.7 miles, sir.

Investigator: 1.7 miles?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Okay. Um, so he took you to Wal-Mart…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Did you both go in?

Jerrod Murray: No, we did not go in, sir.

Investigator: And why not?

Jerrod Murray: We pulled into the parking lot and then I pulled the, um, weapon on him and demanded that he take me to Asher, Oklahoma, sir.

Investigator: Okay. And why, all of the sudden, did you decide that you needed to go to Asher?

Jerrod Murray: Because I was planning to take him out to the country and kill him.

Investigator: Okay. So, when you got him at the dorm, was your intention never to go to Wal-Mart?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: You was, in fact, was you at that point, already in your mind, was going to take him and kill him?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Um, had he done something to you that…

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: Okay. So you just, can you kind of tell me, when you made this decision that you were going to take him and kill him? Why?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, I made the decision three days prior to the incident. Uh, attempted to do it two days prior to the incident but he was not in his room and then did so today, as he was in his room.

Investigator: Okay, so, you been, you been, planning to do this for two days.

Jerrod Murray: Uh, two weeks, yes.

Investigator: Two weeks?

Jerrod Murray: But not with a selected individual, no.

Investigator: Okay. And when did you get to the point when you knew it was going to be him?

Jerrod Murray: That was three days prior to the incident.

Investigator: And why him?

Jerrod Murray: Uh.

Investigator: There’s other kids in college, why, why him?

Jerrod Murray: I believed he would have had the least impact, sir.

Investigator: Impact of, of what?

Jerrod Murray: I believed he didn’t have many friends or many close friends, I should rephrase. And as his [clears throat] he is going missing; his absence would be less notable.

Investigator: Okay. So, what if… tomorrow at school nobody would think anything of it.

Jerrod Murray: That was the plan, sir, yes.

Investigator: Okay, and so why did you choose to take him to Asher to kill him?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, my plan was for my killing him I was going to head north towards Canada and Asher was further north than Ada. So…

Investigator: Okay.

Jerrod Murray: And I knew the surrounding terrain and I knew a good spot. I didn’t have that spot planned in particular. If I had planned that far ahead, I would have had a grave dug, but I knew the general area.

Investigator: Okay, so you brought him to that area because you knew that area because you were raised there.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And that’s the road you would travel going back and forth to your mom and dad’s house?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, no, sir. I would travel the road further to the south of it. Just the road one south to it. That’s the road I would travel to my mother’s house from the school on my bus route, sir.

Investigator: Okay, but what I’m saying to you, you were familiar with that road…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And where it would go to…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Um, not much traffic on that road at this time…

Jerrod Murray: Yes sir. The only people that go on that road are people who live on that road, sir.

Investigator: Okay. You knew that.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: So, when you pulled the gun on him at Wal-Mart, in the parking lot…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Um, what did you tell him?

Jerrod Murray: I told him to take me to Asher.

Investigator: Asher. And did he say anything?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, he panicked. Uh, he went to pull out his phone. I yanked the phone out of his hand and then he panicked some more. Kept telling me not to kill him. To make him feel more comfortable I unloaded the clip, unloaded the bullet from the chamber and then handed them over to him. And that eased his nerves a little. Then I pulled a second clip out of my pocket and set it on my lap.

Investigator: Okay. And you drove, so he drove you.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And did you have any conversation between Ada and Asher?

Jerrod Murray: The entire time was conversation, sir.

Investigator: And was it basically, could you tell me what that conversation was?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, about from Ada to halfway to Asher it was my trying to reaffirm him that I wasn’t going to kill him to calm his nerves. And then from that point on we was us talking about our upbringings, our past, our family histories, things of [inaudible] nature, etcetera etcetera.

Investigator: And, so, did he say anything when you had him pull off of the main highway onto this dirt road?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir. Ah, before this time I had pulled out his phone and uh, pulled up his GPS and showed him where I [inaudible] to make him feel more comfortable, sir.

Investigator: Okay, and so when you turned west off of 177, and there’s, we already talked about this, there’s a substation there…

Jerrod Murray: Um, we didn’t pull onto that road, sir. We pulled onto the road south of it, drove past Turkey Hill Road, turned left, went to around where the [inaudible] live to make another left. Past [inaudible] Estates, went straight and then went down that road from the other direction.

Investigator: So, you came in from the west side of where the pickup is at?

Jerrod Murray: West then east, yes.

Investigator: Okay, and, so you’re headed east on what is known as Substation Road which is the road where the pickup…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Is at now.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: So, you’re headed east and he’s driving.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: You’re on the passenger side. He’s got some bullets that you gave him.

Jerrod Murray: Yeah, the clip and one round, yes.

Investigator: Okay. And where was that at?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, in his left hand, sir.

Investigator: Okay. Then you had the gun…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And… What kind of gun?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, Springfield Armory XD40 Smith and Wesson 40 Caliber.

Investigator: Okay. And you had the gun and another magazine, but you didn’t have the magazine in the gun.

Jerrod Murray: I did not have the magazine in the gun. Every five to ten minutes he had me, uh, put my finger in where the clip goes to uh, show that the round, it wasn’t chambered.

Investigator: Okay. So, you’re driving East, and I guess at some point, did you decide now was the time?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Okay, and what happened?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, I loaded the gun, quickly, chambered the round, quickly. Shot once, missed. Shot a second time, hit. Jumped out of the car. Went around, he was driving 10-15 miles an hour, so it was rather slow, uh, ran around the front of the car. And of course, it was slower, he wasn’t purposefully driving. Uh, tried to pull him out, couldn’t get him out till he had already hit the tree. Pulled him out there, dumped him into, no. Uh, before I dumped him into the ditch, I heard him like gurgling. I’m not sure if that’s a physiological or physical process after death but uh, I had thought that he may have still lived through that somehow because he was gurgling so I shot him again and then shoved him down to the ditch. I then grabbed his phone….

Investigator: Hang up, let’s back up just a second.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: You, um, fired the first round…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And you missed.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Do you know where that round hit?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, I believe it hit the top of the door, but it might have hit the window.

Investigator: Did the window bust?

Jerrod Murray: The window did bust, sir, but I don’t remember if that was the first or second round.

Investigator: Okay. So, you fired once, missed.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Then you fired the second round…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And did you hit him then?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And you hit him in the head.

Jerrod Murray: In the side of the head, yes, sir.

Investigator: Okay, so, it would have been his right…

Jerrod Murray: It would have been right here, sir.

Investigator: The right-hand side of his head…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Somewhere by the ear.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And he was, started veering off the road.

Jerrod Murray: To the left, sir.

Investigator: Okay, and that’s when you got out and ran around…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And you opened the door?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And you tried to pull him out…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And, so when you shot, and he was still gurgling.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: So, was he sitting up when you shot him again?

Jerrod Murray: No. He was lying down on the ground.

Investigator: So you pulled him out of the truck…

Jerrod Murray: And just through him on the ground and then I heard him gurgling so I shot him a second time.

Investigator: And where did hit him the second time.

Jerrod Murray: I’m not certain but I believe the head as well.

Investigator: In the front, back, side?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, I believe it was the same side as…

Investigator: Same side as before?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: So, you think you hit him twice, or you know, you know you hit him in a fact once in the head. Then the second round is probably in the head area too.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And then you rolled him down the ditch?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And then what did you do then?

Jerrod Murray:  I, uh, grabbed his phone from inside the vehicle. I was going to put it on the ground and shoot it as well, but I have a bit of night-blindness and didn’t see the steepness of the hill where it started to veer down. So, I threw it down and it slid down the hill, uh, it landed screen side down so I wasn’t able to find it’s location.

Investigator: Okay, so his phone is somewhere around his body?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, yes, it should be. It might be underneath his body.

Investigator: Okay. And did you do something with his body after that?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, yes sir. I repositioned it and then I tried to cover it, uh, admittedly not well, with leaves, dirts and a stick.

Investigator: Okay, a stick?

Jerrod Murray: Yes. There was a stick on the side of the hill. I just grabbed everything on the side of the hill and uh, pushed it on top of him.

Investigator: Okay, now, when you say a stick, I, I was at the scene, I went down there and you know that…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: uh, actually brought you back down there and you sat in the car down there, correct?

Jerrod Murray: Mm-Hm.

Investigator: And there is a stick, about three-foot-long, about inch, inch and a half in diameter…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Found it by the body but there’s a whole bunch of blood on it. Is there any particular reason that stick…

Jerrod Murray: It had blood on it? Uh, it could be because I rolled his body on top of it. Because if it was on the side of the hill his body would have crossed over it. I couldn’t think of any reason in particular though.

Investigator: Okay. So, you didn’t hit him with the stick or do anything with him with the stick?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: Okay, so that stick just ended up on top of him?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: So, it’s possible he, you rolled him over on it, and then when you were covering him up that stick just ended up on top of him?

Jerrod Murray: It ended up on top of him because the way I covered him up.

Investigator: And so, after you got the body covered up, what did you do then?

Jerrod Murray: I, um, headed back to the truck and tried to get it unstuck.

Investigator: So, you put it in reverse then tried to, uh…

Jerrod Murray: And then tried and tried to but it wasn’t going. So, uh, after that I…

Investigator: When you say it wasn’t going it was because it was stuck?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, I believe one of the wheels was off the ground and it wasn’t making traction.

Investigator: Okay, so you couldn’t get the truck out so what did you do then?

Jerrod Murray: I uh, looked to the left and from the headlights I saw that I could see his orange shirt, so I covered him up better. And uh, as I was finishing that I saw the headlights of a car pulling over the hill, so I went out…

Investigator: Which way was it coming from?

Jerrod Murray: It was heading East, uh, West from the East side, so the highway. And uh, he was slowing down already so I came out as quickly as I could from behind the truck and flagged him down by waving my hands and uh, he asked what was going on. I told him that I had drowsed, dozed off, and veered off the road and couldn’t get my truck unstuck. And then he was uh, I think he, I don’t think he knew exactly what happened, but I think he knew I did something. Maybe stealing, I don’t know. Because like you said, no one travels down that road.

Investigator: Um, did you know him?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir, I did not know him. But since he travels down that road he most likely lived in that area. He knew that I didn’t.

Investigator: Okay.

Jerrod Murray: So, most likely he, uh, was suspicious based on that fact alone because I had no business being on that road. But, uh, he agreed to give me a ride to Asher non the less. Uh, more specifically he didn’t agree to that until his phone didn’t work. We pulled up to about the highway then he dialed a number for me. Uh, I gave him a fake number so that it wouldn’t answer and if it did answer I could just make something up. Whatever number didn’t answer, it was a number that was out of service. Uh, he agreed to give me a ride to Asher so I could get my cellular phone. I don’t own a cellular phone. To uh, call someone that I knew to come get me out.

Investigator: Okay. Where did he take to in Asher?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, my grandparent’s house.

Investigator: Okay. And what is your grandparent’s name?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, Ethel, ah, I don’t know if it’s [inaudible] or Rodrick now.

Investigator: Okay. And [inaudible] and what? And what, do you know their address in Asher?

Jerrod Murray: 306 East Salter Street.

Investigator: Okay, and that’s where he took you to.

Jerrod Murray:  Yes, sir.

Investigator: Okay, and you got out.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Okay, and what did you do then?

Jerrod Murray: I went into the house; I had a Coca Cola. I called a roommate from college that I had an accident and wondered if he could, uh, either get me out of the ditch or knew anyone that could get me out of the ditch.

Investigator: What’s your roommate’s name?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, Shane Schroth.

Investigator: Okay.

Jerrod Murray: Then, uh…

Investigator: Does he have a cell phone?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Do you know his number?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, not off the top of my head, sir. But if I had a phone, I could tell you. It’s like, uh, one…

Investigator: Hang on.

Jerrod Murray: Uh, I can tell you it now. 1-405-694-0359.

Investigator: 6-9-4..

Jerrod Murray: 0-3-5-9.

Investigator: And what’s his name again?

Jerrod Murray: Shane Schroth.

Investigator: Okay, and he goes to school there?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, and he also graduated from Asher.

[inaudible cross talk]

Jerrod Murray: The class.

Investigator: What’s the year, we talked before and you didn’t actually graduate from Asher.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: But you would have graduated with him.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And what’s his last name?

Jerrod Murray: Schroth. S-C-H-R-O-T-H.

Investigator: Okay, and he knew you from Asher?

Jerrod Murray: Yes.

Investigator: Okay.

Jerrod Murray: And we were roommates in college because we were fairly good friends.

Investigator: So, you guys lived in the same dorm, the same room?

Jerrod Murray: Yes.

Investigator: And, so you told him you were stuck.

Jerrod Murray: Yes. I told him I ran my car off a ditch and asked if he knew anyone that could get me out.

Investigator: Do you own a car?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: Did he not know this?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, he didn’t ask, sir.

Investigator: Okay, and what did he tell you?

Jerrod Murray: He, uh, he said he’d try to call his mother to see if his father could do it for me. And uh, they were asleep so there was no answer. So uh, at that point I decided I should go off on my own. I got that can of WD-40 and was going…

Investigator: Wait, wait, wait. Where did you get this can of WD-40?

Jerrod Murray: I, uh, stole it from his parents.

Investigator: Okay, lets back up just a second.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Because you said you were at your grandparents.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Okay. How did you get to his parent’s house?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, he lives on the other side of Asher. I walked.

Investigator: Okay, when you say the other side of Asher, help me out. East of Asher, West Asher, North?

Jerrod Murray: South Asher.

Investigator: South of the [inaudible] shops?

Jerrod Murray: No, it’s in the town just on the South side.

Investigator: Okay, you don’t know their address?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: So, you walked after, I’m just trying to make, understand this, okay?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: So, you call him from your grandparent’s house.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Then he tries to call his parents?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And no answer.

Jerrod Murray: No answer, sir.

Investigator: So, you walk from your grandparent’s house….

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And you walk to his mom and dad’s house.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And about how far is that from your grandparent’s house?

Jerrod Murray: Not far at all. It’s, ah, maybe eight to nine blocks. I don’t know mileage for that.

Investigator: And you walk to their house.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Did you knock on the door?

Jerrod Murray: I just got the can of WD-40 and…

Investigator: And where was that at?

Jerrod Murray: Outside, sir.

Investigator: On the porch or…

Jerrod Murray: They live in a trailer house, sir. It was to the right of their entry way.

Investigator: Just sitting on the ground or…

Jerrod Murray: Sitting on top of a milk crate.

Investigator: Okay, but it was in the yard.

Jerrod Murray: Yes.

Investigator: Not a vehicle or nothing.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And why did you get the WD-40?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, WD-40 is a solvent. It would help degrade the, uh, oils from my fingers and uh, get rid of my fingerprints, sir.

Investigator: Okay. So, you were going to get the can of WD-40 and go back to the crime scene and use WD-40 on the pickup…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: To try to get rid of your fingerprints?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And did you do that?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, no, sir. When I was on my way back, as opposed to going directly back to it I cut through a forest area there by an abandoned trailer house. And uh, as I was entering uh, the uh, general area about the crime scene I heard uh, I believe it was an elderly gentleman cough.  I’m not sure who, I’m not sure what. I just left because well, around that area the man who gave me a ride into town was an elderly gentleman. I concluded that he might have went back and the headlights and brake lights were still on. I thought he might have went back to turn them off, uh, so my battery wouldn’t die. And then he saw the, uh, at least the blood. Probably the body, it wasn’t well hidden at all.

Investigator: Okay.

Jerrod Murray: That’s the conclusion I reached anyways.

Investigator: Uh, so you was in the woods?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: So, you don’t really know who it was?

Jerrod Murray: I just heard an elderly gentleman cough.

Investigator: Did you see the pickup?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: So, you didn’t, so you couldn’t see the pickup…

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: And, so you were on the south side of the road in the woods?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: So, but you never could see the pickup again or know who was there?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: Okay, so what did you do then?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, I headed back East instead of South; took a different route to get out of the wooded area. Uh, ran into a barbed wire fence, jumped the barbed wire fence, headed South along another barbed wire fence I found next to the highway. Well, you couldn’t see the highway, but you could easily hear it and I could see the substation from there pretty clearly. I, uh, headed South along that, came across another barbed wire fence, jumped it, then headed to where I started out at, at that abandoned trailer house there, then walked away and headed North.

Investigator: The abandoned trailer house, is it South of the substation?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, it’s South of the substation.

Investigator:  By how far?

Jerrod Murray: Maybe a hundred yards.

Investigator: And you know what side of the road it’s on?

Jerrod Murray: Um. West side.

Investigator:  West side.

Jerrod Murray: It’s up the ways a little. It’s in a, you know how trailer houses out in the country will have driveways leading to them. So, um, I’m not sure if you can see it from the highway or not.

Investigator: Okay.

Jerrod Murray: And the driveway is run down. I happened to know no one lives there so I figured that was a perfect vantage point to get to the crime scene again.

Investigator: Okay. So, did you get back on the highway?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator:  And which way did you go?

Jerrod Murray: North, sir.

Investigator: What were your intentions?

Jerrod Murray: Ah.

Investigator: Walking North.

Jerrod Murray: Canada, sir.

Investigator: You were just going to Canada.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Okay.

Jerrod Murray: I hoped that uh, by determining I was heading South you, went to Asher, you already know my Grandparent’s house and I was hoping that my name would probably show up somewhere over the course of this little thing, I wasn’t expecting it to be found so quickly…

Investigator: Why didn’t you expect it to be found so quickly?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, I didn’t think someone would drive down that road. In my original plan, I gave myself maybe six to eight hours to get out of the area. But since it was found so quickly, at least I believed so at the time, I didn’t want to revise the plan because I had headed South originally going into town.

Investigator: Okay.

Jerrod Murray: And uh, I hoped you guys would think that I was headed towards Mexico as it’s much closer and probably easier to get past the border.

Investigator: Okay, and so you was walking North on 177.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator:  And what side of the road were you on?

Jerrod Murray: I was on the left right of the road, sir.

Investigator: Okay so if you’re going…

Jerrod Murray: East side.

Investigator: East side and you were walking.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And what happened then?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, I had tried hitch hiking part of, most of the way because the only way this was going to work factoring in, uh, my belief that you all found the crime scene is if someone were to give me a ride there with them. Uh, however, that didn’t happen. Most people were truckers, so they didn’t, they just kept driving, they had a place to go. And then whenever your patrol car pulled up behind me, I didn’t know it was a patrol car and I stuck my thumb out and you was there for the rest.

Investigator: And that’s when I, that’s when me and you first came in contact, correct?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And you were advised then to get on the ground, correct?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator:  Okay, and that’s when I had you put your hands behind your back…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And then when I approached you, I asked you for my safety and for your safety if you had a gun.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And you said “no”.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Do you remember what else you said?

Jerrod Murray: Ah. I might have mentioned the ammunition in my left pocket, sir.

Investigator: That’s right, and what else?

Jerrod Murray: Ah…. “I am the one you’re looking for”.

Investigator: And at that point I told you to be quiet…

Jerrod Murray: Uh….

Investigator: Until I got you and read your rights to you.

Jerrod Murray: Oh ah…

Investigator: Is that correct?

Jerrod Murray: I’m not sure but if you’re saying its correct…

Investigator: Well, no, do you remember that conversation when you said…?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: I said, “hang on just a second”.

Jerrod Murray: Ah, yes, sir. You did say that, yes, sir.

Investigator: So I could read your rights to you and I read your rights to you at that point.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir. I wasn’t aware you were telling me to be quiet, I thought you was just saying “I need to read your rights”.

Investigator: But I told you, you do remember me saying “be quiet for a second”.

Jerrod Murray: Yeah, “hold on a second”.

Investigator: Hold on a second.

Jerrod Murray: Yeah, something to that affect.

Investigator: Okay, uh [inaudible] where, uh we talked about this when you told me the gun, you left the gun in the pickup.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Okay, and when we talked and I told you that, you know, you already told us about the homicide, and you told us about shooting him. The gun’s not in the truck.

Jerrod Murray: It was in the truck, sir.

Investigator: And, so, I need to know where that gun at.

Jerrod Murray: When I left the scene, it was still in the truck, sir.

Investigator: Was still in the truck.

Jerrod Murray: It was still in the truck, sir.

Investigator: Where was it at in the truck?

Jerrod Murray: It was, uh, I believe it was on the center console but it’s possible that it could have been between the driver seat and the center console.

Investigator: Okay, because the center console is pushed up, not down.

Jerrod Murray: Uh, I don’t remember that.

Investigator: Well, you’re saying it’s on the center console. To be on the center console, the center console would have to be in the down position, correct?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: The center console is up. So, was it up or down when you was there?

Jerrod Murray:  I think it was down, sir.

Investigator: Okay. So, but your intentions, can I ask you why you’d leave the gun there if you just killed somebody and you just wanted to get to Canada.

Jerrod Murray: Uh, because the man pulled up too quickly, sir.

Investigator: Okay and was that you’re gun?

Jerrod Murray: Ah, no, sir.

Investigator: And where did you get that gun from?

Jerrod Murray: I stole it two weeks ago from a man named Daniel Davis. Uh, 217 North Division Street.

Investigator: And where is Division Street?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, it’s the uh, if you’re going down 018 and…

Investigator: What, what town is it in?

Jerrod Murray: Asher [inaudible].

Investigator: And his name is David Davis?

Jerrod Murray: Yes.

Investigator: And how did you steal it from his house?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, I went into his house, uh, his family and my family are on good terms. I just walked in the door and went back to his mother’s room and told her that I had a video game to return to Daniel. Then I went into Daniel’s room, put a video game that I brought with me as a way to get into the door and got the gun.

Investigator: Okay, and so you, was it in a box or was…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir. It was in a uh, case.

Investigator:  And where’s the case at?

Jerrod Murray: Still at his house, sir.

Investigator: So, you took the gun out of the case…

Jerrod Murray: I took the gun and two clips, sir.

Investigator: Okay.

Jerrod Murray: I took all the clips.

Investigator: So, where’s those at? so there’s just two?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And where’s, is there ammunition in them?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir. There were twelve rounds in each clip, uh, since I fired three rounds from that one clip that means there’s nine rounds in it- should be. And the uh, other clip had eleven rounds in it because one was chambered and the other round was, I unchambered it and handed it to him.

Investigator: Okay, and now when I brought you in here, we was uncuffing you, we was checking the pockets of your jackets, make sure you didn’t have any weapons in your pockets, correct?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator:  And I pull this can of WD-40 out of your um, right coat pocket…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And then in your left coat pocket there was a purple crown royal bag…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And I took that out of your pocket.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And can you tell me what’s in here?

Jerrod Murray: Ah, some Smith and Wesson 40 Caliber rounds, sir.

Investigator: And was them part of the rounds you stole with the gun?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, no sir. I bought those two or three days later off of friend of mine, sir.

Investigator: So, that many rounds?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, that plus what was in the clip, sir. So, there was twelve and twelve twenty-four plus four that’s in there.

Investigator: Okay but you said there was already, the magazines already had bullets in them.

Jerrod Murray: No, sir. I loaded them with the ammunition I bought, sir.

Investigator: Okay, so when you stole the gun and the magazines there was no bullets with it?

Jerrod Murray: No bullets were in it, sir.

Investigator: Okay so you, what was in the two magazines…

Jerrod Murray: Nothing, sir. Oh, as for the ammunition, yes sir.

Investigator: And what’s in here, you bought off of a friend.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator:  And do you know his name?

Jerrod Murray: Ah… Not off the top of my head, sir.

Investigator: Does he go to college?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir. I call him a friend but he’s just a guy.

Investigator: Okay, and where is he from?

Jerrod Murray: Ada, sir.

Investigator: And do you know how to get ahold of him?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir. It’s a guy I know through a guy minus, I got the word out that I was looking for some ammunition and then…

Investigator: Okay.

Jerrod Murray: A “friend of mine” sold it to me, so…

Investigator: Do you know how many rounds are in here?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, no, sir. I believe there was anywhere between three and six though.

Investigator: So [inaudible] if I pull them out and there will be three to six rounds of 40 caliber rounds in there, correct?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Your intentions with the gun, when you got out into Asher after you shot this young man, that the gun was still in the truck…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: With the magazine.

Jerrod Murray: One magazine as he was holding one of, the other magazine. I believe it fell out of the truck when I was pushing him out. He, I didn’t see it on the floorboard before I left because I was trying to gather it all up. But uh, I think he might still have it in his left hand. [cross talk] At the crime scene.

Investigator: There should have been the gun…

Jerrod Murray: Yes.

Investigator: The magazine that was in the gun…

Jerrod Murray: Yes.

Investigator: The one round that you handed him…

Jerrod Murray: Yes.

Investigator: And then the full magazine.

Jerrod Murray: Yes.

Investigator: So, we’re talking about a total of how many rounds? You said both of them had twelve in it.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: So, we should have, you fired three rounds, correct?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: So, there should be twenty-one rounds and two magazines there and a gun.

Jerrod Murray: Uh, Yes, sir. Plus, well, there, yes, sir. Twenty-one rounds, two magazines, and a gun.

Investigator: Okay. Also, in your pocket there was a debit card, master card, has the name Jerrod Murray. And that’s you, correct?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: This is yours?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Jerrod, I’m going to ask you to sit here for just a second and I’ll be right back, okay?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

[Investigator exits the room]

[Investigator returns]

Investigator: Okay Jerrod. I have a couple other things [inaudible], alright?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And I believe you’re being honest with me, I really do. You told me stuff that, that, that I had no qualms about what you’re telling me except for a couple things, I know for a fact you didn’t get the WD-40 from the front yard.

Jerrod Murray: You’re right. I [inaudible] keeping him out of this but I did go into his house, he did give it to me, and, and, yeah.

Investigator: And when you say him, who?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, the parent of the friend that I called.

Investigator: Shane’s?

Jerrod Murray: Shane’s father, stepfather, yes.

Investigator: And do you know his name?

Jerrod Murray: Ah, Michael Norris.

Investigator: Okay, and what did you tell Michael?

Jerrod Murray: I told him about what had happened and asked for his opinion on the next course of action.

Investigator: When you said what happened, what do you mean?

Jerrod Murray: The murder. I told him about that.

Investigator: You told, you told Shane’s father about the murder you just did?

Jerrod Murray: Not the specifics but the general picture, yes.

Investigator: Do you remember what you told him?

Jerrod Murray: Not exactly. But I mean, I didn’t tell him “I fired three shots, missed one shot, in the head.” Not all that. I just said I got a truck, I killed a guy for it, it’s in a ditch.

Investigator: Okay. Did you tell him how you did it?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, I don’t remember but I might’ve.

Investigator: Okay, and this is really important, and I want you to really think about this because you said you were trying to keep him out of trouble…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And I did know more than you think I know.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: So, I’m still at the gun.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: It’s not in the truck.

Jerrod Murray: It was when I left the scene. That was the whole point of him taking me back, sir. To get it.

Investigator: Okay, so he took you back to the scene?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, no.

Investigator: Because you said you walked.

Jerrod Murray: No, ah, he drove me to the abandoned house that I spoke of.

Investigator: Okay, so Mr. Norris gave you the can of WD-40…

Jerrod Murray: Yes.

Investigator: And I believe he probably got that from the bathroom of his house.

Jerrod Murray: Ah, I’m not aware of where he got it but if that’s where he says then yeah.

Investigator: Okay, and, so he drove you from Asher back to

Jerrod Murray: The area of the scene.

Investigator: Just South where you would turn on Substation Road and that’s where the abandoned trailer house is on the West side.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: So, you got out of the car and walked out through the abandoned trailer house, through the woods…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And that’s when you heard somebody cough?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Ah, there is a note wrote on a piece of paper, like a business card, on the passenger side window. Stuck on the pickup. The window’s up, and there’s a note stuck in there. Says “come to the house at the end of the road.” Did you write that?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: Huh?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: You didn’t write that?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: You have any idea how that note could have got there?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir. I don’t think anything like that was there whenever I left.

Investigator: Okay. So, is it a possibility that the gentleman…?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, yes. On our way back to Asher he had told me some thieves had stolen about a thousand dollars’ worth of guns of his and that he was looking for them and that if he found them, he would kill them dead on the side of the road. Then I said that a thousand dollars is a fair amount of money and then he said it didn’t matter if it was fifty, he doesn’t like thieves.

Investigator: Okay, um, so is it possible that he, that on his way home he could have stopped and wrote that note?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, that’s a possibility, I won’t deny that. Like I said, I thought it might have been him who called the police. Ah, I still don’t know if it was or not, but I thought it might have been him. He went to go turn my lights off then saw the blood and then called but uh, if he did write that note then I don’t think he would have called police.

Investigator: Okay, uh, I just want to go over a couple points with you then we’re going to take another break, okay?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Um, and you started this out that, um, you’ve actually had this on your mind for about three weeks.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And you just didn’t know who.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Okay.

Jerrod Murray: Or when. Or where. Well, I had a general idea of the area but that was picked out about a week ago, sir.

Investigator: And was that picked out because of where you were aware of your surroundings?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And so, lets go back to our victim, the young man that you killed.

Jerrod Murray: Generro.

Investigator: Um, you, basically you picked him out because you thought that you, nobody would miss him, if I understood what you…

Jerrod Murray: In general, yes, sir.

Investigator: And you told me on the way you guys talked from Ada to Asher about your upbringings…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Was your upbringing any different than his?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: What was the difference between your upbringing and his?

Jerrod Murray: Nothing major, I mean, we didn’t talk on the topic of upbringings for very long. He just said that he was, uh, always fat and overweight and was made fun of for it so he had confidence issues and then I said that I never, well, I had that problem but that problem stopped in about the fifth grade, so.

Investigator: And why did that stop?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, the bullies that picked on me, I beat them up.

Investigator: Okay, and that was in Asher?

Jerrod Murray: Yes.

Investigator: Okay, so the bullies, you beat them up, not because you just wanted to beat them up but because they were making fun of you?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, to stop them from making fun of me, yes.

Investigator: Okay, I can understand that. Um, let me, have you done any other thing that’s been violent?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, yes, sir. The mutual friend that I talked about that I know him through, his name is Wyatt Freeman. He lives across the hall from me. I don’t know his room number. It’s directly across the hall though. Uh, maybe a month, a month and a half ago at college… we hung out almost every night, played video games, it was all fun and games, you know. Uh, I was talking to him and then the talk of [inaudible] was brought up and then he said if I got you in a choke hold you would tap out. I said I’m not going to tap out and then he got me in a choke hold and I was knocked unconscious and when I woke up everyone in the room was laughing at me and then he said that there was no way I was knocked unconscious in that short of a time and then I punched him in the face and then he pushed me away and told me to get out of his room and I spat in his face and left his room. And then he came to my room, and had a flashlight I had dropped out of my pocket and was holding it and said “this is your flash light”. I went to reach for it, he pulled me into the hallway, and was going to beat me for it. Then, I told him let them beat me and whenever they come to break it up, I would be the one with all the injuries and it would be his fault.

Investigator: Okay.

Jerrod Murray: And then the uh, East Central University police responded to that.

Investigator: Okay, and his first name is what?

Jerrod Murray: Wyatt.

Investigator: Wyatt.

Jerrod Murray: I’m not quite sure how to spell that. Freedman is his last.

Investigator: Okay, um, Jerrod, I want to ask you again just point blank because you sat here and confessed to…

Jerrod Murray: Pretty much everything.

Investigator: In my mind, I think you might agree with me, just cold blooded killed him that night, or last night.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Have you ever killed anybody else?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: Have you ever thought of it?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, more myself than anyone else, sir.

Investigator: Okay, and when was the last time you thought about killing yourself?

Jerrod Murray: Three weeks ago, sir.

Investigator: And what was going on three weeks ago?

Jerrod Murray: Nothing in particular. Um, my grandfather died recently but that’s not related to it. Before his death I had similar thoughts as recently.

Investigator: Your grandfather, is that the same grandfather that you caught a ride to back to his house tonight or a different one?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, yes. My grandparent’s house. He lived there with my grandmother. Yes.

Investigator: Okay, so your grandfather’s dead so your grandmother lives by herself?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, she had a friend over but yeah.

Investigator: Okay. Uh, okay. Let me ask you this, Jerrod. Are you taking any medications for any mental illness?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: Have you ever?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: Do you take drugs?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: Have you ever taken drugs?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, I smoked marijuana in my mid to early teenage years.

Investigator: When was the last time you smoked marijuana?

Jerrod Murray: Maybe six years ago, maybe five.

Investigator: Never done any other type of drug?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: Um, not on any medicatoin.

Jerrod Murray: No, sir. Just an albuteral inhalor for asthma.

Investigator:  You do have asthma.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Um, so, um, when you, lets go back three weeks ago when you started planning that you were going to kill somebody.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And you just didn’t know who or when.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: What made last night the time and who. I kind of understand who.

Jerrod Murray: Uh, as I stated earlier, uh, it wasn’t neccissarily last night. I made the decision to do it and who three days ago and I tried. No, maybe two…. Tuesday. I made the decision, Tuesday. This whole saying days ago because it’s a different day than it was yesterday, uh, it was Tuesday that I made the decision  it should be him. He wasn’t in his dorm, I didn’t try again, no. Maybe I did try again the day after. I can’t remember the days anymore. It was Tuesday I made up my mind, though. I knew who it was and tried that night.

Investigator: Okay, and I guess I’m having a hard time understanding what you got out of it. Can you kind of, can you help me?

Jerrod Murray: I don’t really get anything out of it.

Investigator: But I mean why, if you weren’t going to get something, self graditude, something, why did you do it, I guess is what I’m asking.

Jerrod Murray: If I’m pressed to answer I’ll say it’s to prove the strength of my resolve but that is only if I’m pressed to answer.

Investigator: I’m not pressing you. I’m just trying to understand.

Jerrod Murray: Then I don’t know why.

Investigator: Okay, so it just…

Jerrod Murray: Popped in my head.

Investigator: Popped in your head and you…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Okay but it ever popped in your head before?

Jerrod Murray: Ah, not an appeal, sir.

Investigator: That you, that you, you never killed before?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: Okay, animals?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir. I’ve never hunted. I know how to hunt. I know how to make a bow and arrow. I know how to field dress animals and but not but I’ve never hunted before, no.

Investigator: Okay, now when we were talking before you indicated to me you did not graduate from Asher.

Jerrod Murray: No, sir. I flunked out.

Investigator: Okay, so when you say “flunked out” was that because you just couldn’t do it or you just…

Jerrod Murray: I didn’t want to do homework. The teachers at the school as well as all facitly amitted I was the smartest person there. They knew I could do the work. I didn’t see the point of doing it if they already know and everyone knows I could do it.

Investigator: That was my next question because it don’t make sense sombody who flunked out of school would be at East Central.

Jerrod Murray: Ah, that summer, I’ve been going to [inaudible] Upward Bound for math and science, uh, since maybe three years ago. Uh,

Investigator: And was you doing Upward Bound at East Central?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, that’s uh…

Investigator: Do they have it in…

Jerrod Murray: They have both Upward Bound math and science, obviously.

Investigator: [cross talk]  also do the same thing but I don’t think you can get math and science at [inaudible] state [inaudible].

Jerrod Murray: Yeah. It’s upper math, yeah.

Investigator: Okay. So you’ve been going East Central Upward Bound?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, yes. For three years, yes, sir. And um…

Investigator: What kind of grades are you making in college right now?

Jerrod Murray: I believe I’ve failed everything besides choices and wellness, sir.

Investigator: Is, are you failing everything by choice?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And why is that?

Jerrod Murray: Mm, laziness I would suppose, sir.

Investigator: Okay.

Jerrod Murray: Didn’t feel like going to classes. I mean, if I was already up in the Central area to eat a meal I would go to classes because it’s not that I have a problem going to classes. It’s to the dorms to the central area; I was too lazy to travel that distance.

Investigator: Not because you couldn’t do the work.

Jerrod Murray: Not because I couldn’t do the work. I was passing most my classes before then.

Investigator: And what were your ambitions or dreams to be?

Jerrod Murray: Ah, I had hoped to become a chemist for the Department of Defense.

Investigator: Okay. Kind of hard to do in Canada.

Jerrod Murray: [laughs]

Investigator: Wouldn’t you agree?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And, I’m going to ask you this and you can answer if you want. I’m just, I’m having a hard time.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Do you feel any remorse?

Jerrod Murray: I’m sad that I got caught so quickly but that’s almost lessened by being caught by someone with “sheriff” on their jacket but for killing him? No.

Investigator: Okay, so it makes you feel better that it was somebody that had “sheriff” on their jacket who arrested you?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: As opposed to what?

Jerrod Murray: A deputy or someone like that, sir.

Investigator: Okay, well, I’m not the sheriff.

Jerrod Murray: I’m aware of that.

Investigator: I’m the under sheriff.

Jerrod Murray: The person driving me up here told me that but still, that’s…

Investigator: So it makes you feel better that you got caught by somebody up in rank opposed to somebody under…

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: But my question again is, do you have any remorse?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: Okay. Alright. Give me a minute, okay?

[Investigator exits room]

[background conversation in another room]

[Investigator returns]

Investigator: {inaudible] okay?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir. Ah, my left thumb has been numb since we got to the crime scene.

Investigator: Do what?

Jerrod Murray: My left thumb has been numb since we got to the crime scene.

Investigator: How come?

Jerrod Murray: I don’t know. I figured when the cuffs came off feelings would return to it but in this area it’s still numb.

Investigator: Ah, you probably just need to work it.

Jerrod Murray: Well, I have been.

Investigator: Rub it. You ever been cuffed before?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: So aint never been in any trouble?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: So if I run a record on you I’m not going to find anything on you?

Jerrod Murray: You might find that assault from a couple months ago but that would be it.

Investigator: That’s when you and that other guy got into it?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: About the choke hold.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Okay. Um, I take it since you go to college you have a computer, correct?

Jerrod Murray: I have a laptop, sir.

Investigator: And it’s probably at your dorm?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Okay. Um, and I know we’ve talked about this, kind of in general, you didn’t know who it was going to be?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Or when it was going to be but you kind of knew where.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Then you tried this Tuesday night.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And he wasn’t there, he was home. This is now Friday morning so this was Thursday night.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: And when I talked to you, something about “was there going to be others”…

Jerrod Murray: I…

Investigator: And you made the statement earlier that you was happy that you got caught by somebody in the rank and stature of the Sheriff’s office.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: So, you understand I’m going to do my job thorough.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir. I understand that completely.

Investigator: And that means I’m going to end up getting a search warrant of your computer.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir. I understand that.

Investigator: So, if there is, I want this, searching your computer are we’re going to find any ideals of wanting to do a mass shooting in a school?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: Or you was going to kill anybody else?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: Okay, why do you want me to believe that this was going to be a one time thing since you planned this for three weeks, and by Tuesday night you knew who and when but it failed?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Tell me why I should believe you this was just going to be one person who was going to suffer from your consequences of killing?

Jerrod Murray: You have no reason to believe me, sir.

Investigator: Oh, I believe but so, but you’re trying to tell me you were just going to do it one time and that was going to be the end of it?

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Okay. So I’m not going to find anything on your computer that’s going to be or when I go to college when myself and this team from the DA’s office goes to the campus and we go and talk to everybody that you’re associated with at the dorms, uh, nobody’s going to tell us “well he’s talked about a school shooting or killing people”?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: I’m not going to find that?

Jerrod Murray: No, sir.

Investigator: Okay.

Jerrod Murray: That said, I have been asked by people, including at Asher, if I was a murderer or if I planned on it but I’ve never planned on it since three weeks ago and I’ve never killed anyone so the answer has always been “no”. I’m not sure if it was jokingly or seriously, that said.

Investigator: Okay. I guess I’m just having a real hard time understanding why. Why him?

Jerrod Murray: Well, if it was a random person there could be the possiblity he had children or something of that nature. Uh, if it was someone else up there they’d have a lot more friends or a lot more social, so…

Investigator: So… [inaudible] by his quota status of not having very many friends or being social, it was a good victim.

Jerrod Murray: His presence would be less noticed, yes.

Investigator: Okay.

[Investigator stands to exit]

Jerrod Murray: That said, he did have a girlfriend and some friends.

Investigator: Yeah. You don’t think his girlfriend would have missed him?

Jerrod Murray: Ah, I wasn’t aware of his girlfriend up until tonight, sir.

Investigator: Oh. So he told you before you killed him?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, no. The entire way down there uh, I had the phone at Wal-Mart, so the entire way down there she was texting him so I was texting what he told me to text back.

[Investigator sits back down]

Investigator: So this was a conversation between his girlfriend and actually you, but you was texting what he…

Jerrod Murray: Word for word, yes.

Investigator: Okay. You don’t think she’s going to be upset, heartbroken?

Jerrod Murray: I think she will be.

Investigator: How does that make you feel?

Jerrod Murray: No different, sir.

Investigator: Okay.

[Investigator exits room]

[Investigator enters room]

Investigator: Do one more thing for me.

Jerrod Murray: Yes, sir.

Investigator: Just the history deal with you, fill that form out for me.

Jerrod Murray: Uh…

Investigator: Just your name, address, city, phone number, stuff like that.

Jerrod Murray: Alright.

Investigator: Just [inaudible]

[Investigator exits room]

[Investigator enters room]

Investigator: Common’ big guy.

Jerrod Murray: Uh, I’ve got some questions about this paperwork.

Investigator: About what?

Jerrod Murray: Uh, I didn’t know what to put under investigator, date, armed, hair color or the bottom line.

Investigator: Okay, that’s no big deal. I’ll fill that in.

Jerrod Murray: Well, I didn’t even know if that was hair color, I thought it might be hair length, both. I don’t know.

Investigator: Okay, that’s good. I just needed general information on name and all that anyway.

[investigator and Jerrod exit room after Jerrod pushes chair back under table]

Investigator: Common, through here.

Lee Rodarte Case Summary

On August 2, 2017, Savannah Gold was last seen on security cameras leaving her car and entering the car of her manager, Lee Rodarte, at the restaurant she worked at, Bone Fish. They had an on-again off-again relationship; though Rodarte primarily dated someone else.

Savvanah Gold

Within minutes of entering Rodarte’s car, Savannah’s mother and brother received text messages from her phone, written in a way that Savannah would not write, with various spelling errors. The text message to her mother read:

“Hey I just eanted to tell you and mom I met a really great guy and we are running away together I love him and we are leaving to ight ill call you later when we get tk where we are glong”

The text message to her brother read:

“Heyi quit im leavingwith my boyfriend I cant do this shit anything im fine justwant to get away”

This immediately alarmed her family who later filed a missing person’s report. Soon, the police reviewed security footage showing Lee Rodarte’s vehicle doors being kicked open three times after he gets into the back of his vehicle with her. She is never seen leaving his vehicle.

Lee Rodarte2

In a police interrogation, he says he went to Bone Fish knowing her shift was about to start to tell her to stop spreading rumors about their intimate relationship because it was upsetting his girlfriend. The situation escalated and he slashed her tire and murdered her. Examiners were not able to determine her cause of death but did say her hyaline cartilage was fractured and that her death was certainly a homicide. Lee Rodarte claims as the struggle ensued in the back of his vehicle, he felt something “pop” in her neck.

Lee Rodarte has filed a “Stand Your Ground” claim with the First District Court of Appeal, resulting in his trial being delayed.

Lee Rodarte Interrogation Transcript

Lee Rodarte was a manager at the Bone Fish restaurant who killed a server there named Savannah Gold, in his car in the restaurant’s parking lot. She was 21 years old. Within minutes after the murder he texted her mother and brother text messages filled with misspellings, claiming she was leaving with a boyfriend.  He first denied any knowledge when questioned by police but three days after her disappearance he admitted to slashing her tire, killing her and directed investigators to her body in a body of water. He claims the murder was accidental. The incident was recorded on security cameras but investigators could not see what happened inside of the vehicle. Below is the interrogation video and transcript. The confession was edited out when it was published but everything leading up to, and following the confession remains. When it is the edited parts are released, the transcript will be updated. A case summary can be viewed here.

Lee Rodarte Interrogation Transcript

[conversation between investigator and officer about uncuffing Rodarte]

Officer 1:  Put your hands on your head, I’ve got to pat you down.

Lee Rodarte: Yes sir.

Officer 1:  Spread your legs for me. Do you have anything in your pockets?

Lee Rodarte: Nothing. They got it all.

Officer 2: I’ve got his hat and um [inaudible] in my trunk. I’ll go get them.

Officer 1: Okay. I just want to… Just our policy, you know what I mean?

Lee Rodarte: Yes sir. Yes sir.

Officer 1: Could you do me a favor? I’m going to have you take that apron off.

Lee Rodarte: Okay.

Officer 1: [inaudible] You can go ahead and have a seat right there for me. I’ll be right back, okay?

Lee Rodarte: Yes sir.

Officer 1: Need a water or anything?

Lee Rodarte: Uh, I’ll take some water.

Officer 1: Water? Yup, give me one second.

[Investigator leaves and returns with a bottle of water]

Lee Rodarte: [inaudible] Would it be, uh, possible if I could use the restroom?

Officer 1: Yeah, give me one second. Let me get my partner real quick and we’ll walk you there.

Lee Rodarte: Yes sir, no problem.

Officer 1: No problem.

[Officer 1 closes and opens the door]

Officer 1: You can come on.

[Rodarte leaves and returns from bathroom]

Officer 1: I’ll be right outside just knock if you need anything, okay? Just give me a couple minutes.

[90 minutes of silence]

Detective 1:  Hey man

Lee Rodarte: How are you doin?

Detective 1: Good good. Do you remember me from the other day? Detective Reeves?

Lee Rodarte: Yes, sir.

Detective 1: Uh, this is my partner, Detective [inaudibale]. She was interviewing some of the other folks, waiters and other staff people the other day, so she didn’t have the chance to come down at the time. Um. I want to talk to you, well actually, we wanted to… do you want some more water?

Lee Rodarte: Yeah. Actually, would it be alright to use the bathroom one more time?

Detective 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’ll walk you out there. Grab, ah, hang on one second, let me grab something.

Lee Rodarte: No problem.

Detective 1: No worries.

[Detective 1 and Rodarte leave to bathroom]

[Detective 1 and Rodarte returns 7 minutes later]

Detective 1: You want some water?

Lee Rodarte: Uh, yes please if that would be alright.

Detective 1: Got a water?

[Detective 1 exits and returns]

Detective 1: Um, like I said, I kind of want to go over some stuff. We talked the other day for just a few minutes, and I had some concerns about a couple things and um, oh okay, um I wanted to talk to you about Savannah. So, I just have a couple of things that came up that I wanted to ask you about specifically that didn’t seem to line up. So, I wanted to come down to talk to you. Alright?

Lee Rodarte: Alright.

Detective 1: So, lets get a couple, let’s make sure I got your basic information. It’s Lee. Tell me how you pronounce your last name.

Lee Rodarte: Rodarte.

Detective 1: Rodarte. And that’s R-O-D-A-R-T-E and it’s 1081 Halifax Road, Jacksonville. What’s the zip?

Lee Rodarte: Uh, 32216.

Detective 1: 32216. Okay. Date of birth is 8/11/88?

Lee Rodarte: Yup.

Detective 1: And you’re 5’11”?

Lee Rodarte: Yup.

Detective 1: And what’s your approximate weight?

Lee Rodarte: Um… It’s been a while since I weighed myself but probably about 163, something like that.

Detective 1: 163? Okay, what color eyes do you have?

Lee Rodarte: Brown.

Detective 1: Brown? Hair is…

Lee Rodarte: Brown.

Detective 1: Brown. And what’s your phone number?

Lee Rodarte:  904-452-6094.

Detective 1: Okay. And your social, do you know your social?

Lee Rodarte: Pretty sure I do.

[edited out]

Detective 1: And white male. And how old are you?

Lee Rodarte: Um. I’m 28.

Detective 1: 28? And can you read and write?

Lee Rodarte: Yes.

Detective 1: What’s the last school you went to?

Lee Rodarte: Forest Highschool. Before it was [inaudible]

Detective 1: When did you graduate from there?

Lee Rodarte: Uh, ‘06.

Detective 1: Okay. 2006. Alright, and you can read and write. Have you had um, have you drank any alcohol today? Any drugs today?

Lee Rodarte: Um, I took an Adderall that my buddy gave me.

Detective 1: Okay.

Lee Rodarte: Because I was there late last night, and I was super tired like [inaudible] take this.

Detective 1: Alright, Adderall?

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 1: And do you normally take that?

Lee Rodarte: Nah, I was, I’ve taken one long time ago. I wouldn’t say high school. A little after high school but it’s been years.

Detective 1: Okay, uh, but nothing to drink, alcohol wise?

Lee Rodarte: No.

Detective 1: Okay and how, about what time do you think you took the Adderall?

Lee Rodarte: Uh, It was probably twelve-ish.

Detective 1: Like noon?

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 1: Okay. And do you understand what I’m saying though? You able to communicate okay enough? It didn’t, you know, make you not be able to…

Lee Rodarte: No.

Detective 1: Okay. And no alcohol. And you said you can read and write?

Lee Rodarte: Yes.

Detective 1: Alright. Perfect, awesome. Okay, I want to ask you some questions, but I want to go over your rights. We are currently at 501 East [street] Street, which is the police memorial building. Today is August the 5th, 2017 and it’s approximately 7:15. Make sure about that. Yep. 7:15 p.m. give or take. Um, can you, will you read that? Just that top line for me?

Lee Rodarte: You have the following rights under the United States Constitution.

Detective 1: Perfect. I will read these with you, and you can kind of just follow. Um, you do not have to make a statement or say anything. Anything you say can be used against you in court. You have the right to talk to a lawyer for advice before you make a statement or before any questions are ask of you and to have the lawyer with you during any questioning. If you can not afford to higher a lawyer, one will be appointed to you before any questioning if you wish. If you do answer questions, you also have the right to stop answering those questions at any time and consult with your attorney or with a lawyer. Do you understand those rights?

Lee Rodarte: Yes sir.

Detective 1: Okay awesome. If you just sign there that you understand that. That isn’t admitting or not saying anything, it’s just saying that you understand your rights.

Lee Rodarte: Okay.

Detective 1: Perfect. I appreciate it that. Alright so, um, Savannah. You said you knew her, and guys had… Uh, you knew her from work. I mean, just fill me in. How long have you known her…?

Lee Rodarte: Like I said, I have known her obviously since she start, since she started working there. Um, I would say probably about eight months ago or so we started hanging out outside of work. Um, and at the time I had a girlfriend. Um, but we kind of, you know, we kind of connected, me and Savannah. So, we hung out a little bit here and there. Um, got pretty close. Uh, we come from I guess somewhat similar, uh, backgrounds I guess you should say.

Detective 1: Okay.

Lee Rodarte: Um, she didn’t have it the best growing up, neither did I. So, we kind of connected. Hung out for a while. Probably would say a period of two, three months. Um, and then she started using drugs a lot. Now, I used them with her, not the same drugs that she used all the time, um but I did them with her a couple times. And then she started to get heavy into them.

Detective 1: Oh, gotcha.

Lee Rodarte: So, um. I kind of just, uh, try to take a step back and, you know, put things off. Um, and after that, um, me and my ex started kind of chit chatting again [cross talk]

Detective 1: Okay, and who’s that? What’s her name?

Lee Rodarte: Her name’s Chelsea.

Detective 1: Okay, alright.

Lee Rodarte: Um, so, we kind of started chit chatting again, never really hundred percent because obviously she was still kind of upset about me hanging out with Savannah and stuff like that. Um, and then probably a month or so ago, um, I saw Savannah again at work and she looked healthy again. You know, she gained a little bit of weight and uh, just, you know, friendly talk at work. You know, telling her, you know, hope everything has been good and she told me, you know, that I guess she did a lot of drugs and ended up in the hospital. She ended up missing like, I want to say, a couple days, three or four days of work.

Detective 1: Oh okay.

Lee Rodarte: Um, so obviously, you know, me being pretty close to her I was concerned and everything. But after she came back, she looked good. She ended up telling me that, I guess, uh, you know, over those four days she detoxed pretty well. She kind of caught a… new sense into why she should do so much drugs …

Detective 1: Good for her.

Lee Rodarte: so much. And like I said, she looked good. She started looking healthy so, uh, we were kind of talking here and there and we hung out a couple times. Um, she came over to the house and we just kind of kicked back, drank a couple beers, watched movies, stuff like that. Um, and then as we hung out, you know, after a couple times, she brought drugs over. Um, and I told her, you’re doing really good. You can’t, you know, you shouldn’t be doing it again. You’re finally gaining weight. Because when we were together the first time, she was you know, she got really petite and just didn’t look well. Which is kind of why I took a step back plus, uh, my father used a lot of drugs growing up, my mother used a lot of drugs growing up. And it was just kind of a hard thing to see, you know, every time that we hung out.

Detective 1: Okay.

Lee Rodarte: Like I said, we did, uh like we took some pain pills here and there, on occasion, but then she started like bringing heroin over and stuff like that. That’s, uh. My mom was addicted to methamphetamines when she was, when I was younger. So those hard, like hard drugs does kind of scare me a little but so that’s why I stepped back the first time. Then I felt like she was better as we hung out recently and then she brought drugs over to my house the last time we hung out and uh, we would text here and there. I would ask her how she was doing, you know, hope her day was going good just… because I told her the last time we hung out I was like, you know, you’re doing really well, stop doing this, you know, you can do it.

Detective 1: Yeah, yeah. No doubt.

Lee Rodarte: Um, and I heard that she kept, was doing the same thing.

Detective 1: Okay.

Lee Rodarte: Um, so, we texted a couple times and I end up telling her “hey, you know, for one I’m dealing with a lot of personal stuff myself right now as it is. I’m a little depressed. Um, but I think we’re moving too fast. I think we should stop talking”. Um, and she said “I understand, it’s completely fine. No problem”, you know. She said “I’ll delete your number. I’ll never text you again”.

Detective 1: Okay.

Lee Rodarte: And I said “same”. And I was like “I’m sorry. Like, I didn’t mean to, you know, try to jump back into things, I just, I think we moved too fast”. Um, and I said I wouldn’t text her either. Just to be, you know, kind of split.

Detective 1: Mutual, yeah.

Lee Rodarte: Um, and that was the last time that we text.

Detective 2: When was that?

Lee Rodarte: Um, it was probably a couple, two or three weeks ago.

Detective 1: Okay.

Lee Rodarte: Sometime in July.

Detective 1: Right right. Yeah, I think that was one of the things you said was that was the last time that you had contact with her as far as, and I don’t want to put words in your mouth so you correct me if I’m wrong”

Lee Rodarte: That’s the last time that I text her.

Detective 1: Text or phone call or messenger or any like that is two to three weeks?

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 1: Okay. And um, the last time… When was the last time you saw her?

Lee Rodarte: This is what I was [inaudible]. I didn’t tell you the truth when we talked [inaudible]. The last time I saw her was Wednesday afternoon.

Detective 1: Okay.

Lee Rodarte: Um. I heard that she has been, basically telling a lot people at work that, um, we hooked up a bunch a couple days before that and that she was going to like, tell about the whole situation and try to get me fired.

Detective 1: Why, why would that get you fired?

Lee Rodarte: Well, I’m a manager and she’s an employee.

Detective 1: Okay, so you guys aren’t supposed to fraternize?

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 1: Okay, I gotcha.

Lee Rodarte: And she just told people she was out with at work at the restaurant that we were having sex and hooking up and stuff like that. That I was her boyfriend and this and that. Um, so I was a little upset. Obviously, you know, I care about my job. Um…

Detective 1: Sure, how long have you been working there again?

Lee Rodarte: Um, it’ll be five years in December.

Detective 1: Okay, yeah. Right.

Lee Rodarte: So I was a little upset. Um, so. I met her in the parking lot at BoneFish.

Detective 1: When was this?

Lee Rodarte: Wednesday afternoon.

Detective 1: Okay. Do you know what time or about?

Lee Rodarte: Um, it was about 5:30.

Detective 1: Okay.

Detective 2: When you say you met her, was she meeting you too or…

Lee Rodarte: Um, I didn’t call her…

Detective 2: Okay.

Lee Rodarte: I just drove up there to see if maybe she was working. I was going to, you know, talk to her and um…

Detective 1: Did you know if she was working that night?

Lee Rodarte: Um, I did.

Detective 1: You did not.

Lee Rodarte: I did.

Detective 1: Oh, you did.

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 1: Oh, I’m sorry. So, you knew she was working that night.

Lee Rodarte: So, I drove up there and was hoping I would get the chance to talk to her.

Detective 1: Okay.

Lee Rodarte: Um, I pulled in the parking lot. She pulled in a little bit after me. I parked. And I said “Hey, can I talk to you for a second?” um, and she said “yeah, what’s up?” and I was like “I heard you’ve been saying some things about me and you continuing to hang out and we’re boyfriend and girlfriend and she asked me, she said “Can I come sit in the car because I just did some heroin and I’m a little paranoid”.

Detective 1: Okay.

Lee Rodarte: I said, “why are you doing that?” You know, you’ve been doing really well, you shouldn’t be doing that.

Detective 1:  Okay.

Lee Rodarte: Um and, she came and got in the car and I explained to her the situation that, I told her that servers and Bone Fish were coming to me and telling me that you’re telling people when you’re out that we’re having sex and we’re boyfriend and girlfriend and I said “I would appreciate, you know, I need you to stop. Because for one this is jeopardizing my job. We agreed to, you know, split. Stop talking mutually and just move on and you know, be cordial or whatever” but um, it was nothing more than that.  And she said “I’m going to do what I want, uh, you can believe what you want, I didn’t tell anybody anything” and I told her, I said “the girl that you were out with told Chelsea that we were still having sex and that you were just at my house like yesterday, hanging out” and..

Detective 1:  That she was out with when?

Lee Rodarte: That Savannah was out with a couple nights prior.

Detective 1:  Okay. Gotcha.

Lee Rodarte: I guess at one of the bars [cross talk]

Detective 1:  And who’s that?

Lee Rodarte: The girl that she…

Detective 1:  Yeah.

Lee Rodarte: The girl that she was with? He name was Rachel.

Detective 1:  Rachel. Okay. Rachel told Chelsea that…

Lee Rodarte: Savannah was saying that uh… cause me and Chelsea talk, we are very, you know, friendly at work, you know. We joke back and forth “haha” and uh, um, and Savannah said “Yeah, I did say that”, you know, uh “I don’t really like Chelsea”, you know. And I said “look, you need to stop because for one, like I said, we agreed to go our separate ways, and this is jeopardizing my job and it is making me really upset having to come into work. You know? Or talk to Chelsea and she just constantly, you know, badgering me about stuff that you’re saying that isn’t true.

Detective 1:  Yeah.

Lee Rodarte: Um. And I told her that she needs to stop. Um. At that point…

Detective 1:  Okay.

Lee Rodarte: I said “Stop, I’m serious. I don’t want to talk to you, it’s not good for us, so let’s stop” and she just said, “why did you do that?” I said “well, I’m upset” and she said, “fuck you”, you know “you’re a piece of shit”. She said she was going to keep talking, telling lies and stuff about me and everything like that, and I said…

[edited]

Lee Rodarte: and at that point, uh, she had a phone in her hand, she got out of the car and walked towards the main entrance of San Jose.

Detective 1:  So, like if, um.

Lee Rodarte: So, like if this is…

Detective 1:  I know Bone Fish is over here, this is San Jose, this is the bank over here in this area. Where were you guys parked?

Lee Rodarte: She was parked here.

Detective 1:  Okay.

Lee Rodarte: Um, to the left of the five-star ATM.

Detective 1:  Okay.

Lee Rodarte: I was parked here.

Detective 1:  Okay, alright, so you’re like here?

Lee Rodarte: Yeah, um, I was, I was probably three spaces away.

Detective 1:  Okay, from her car?

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 1:  Okay.

Lee Rodarte: Um so.

Detective 1:  And what do you drive?

Lee Rodarte: I drive a Chevy Malibu.

Detective 1:  Okay. What color is it?

Lee Rodarte: Silver.

Detective 1: Silver Chevy Malibu.

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 1:  Does it have Colorado tags, Florida tags, Georgia tags?

Lee Rodarte: Florida tags.

Detective 1:  Okay. And um, did you, when you got there did you pull into the parking place or did you park sideways, did you…

Lee Rodarte: I backed in, I backed in.

Detective 1:  Okay, you backed in.

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 1:  You backed into this parking space over by the bank area um, by the five-star ATM.

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 1: And you’re driving a Silver Chevy Malibu with a Florida tag. Okay. And she pulls in over on this side of you?

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 1:  Okay, so like, if you’re in your car and you’re sitting here, she would be on your left, the driver side.

Lee Rodarte: So, if I’m sitting facing forward, yeah, she would be on the driver’s side.

Detective 1:  Does she back in, does she pull in?

Lee Rodarte: She pulled in.

Detective 1:  Okay. Alright. So, when she gets out she’s close enough to you and that’s when you motioned her over or called her over or said “hey can I talk to you”…

Lee Rodarte: Yeah, I said “hey can I talk to you”.

Detective 2: Were you by yourself?

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 2: Okay. Nobody in the car with you?

Lee Rodarte: No.

Detective 1:  Nobody in the car with her?

Lee Rodarte: No.

Detective 1:  Okay, alright. What was she wearing?

Lee Rodarte: Um, her uniform.

Detective 1:  Her uniform. Okay. Alright. And then she comes over, she says “can I get in the car?” If I say anything wrong, correct me. Okay? I’m going to repeat back but if I don’t get something right, I need you to make sure I’m saying the right thing. Okay. Um, you say “hey, can I talk to you” and she walks over, approaches on the driver’s side. You in the car or out of the car?

Lee Rodarte: In the car.

Detective 1: Okay. You’re sitting in the driver’s seat?

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 1:  Okay. Um, and she, she asked if she can get in because she just did heroin and she, how does she do it? Does she shoot up, smoke it, snort?

Lee Rodarte: Uh, she snorts it.

Detective 1:  Okay. And then…

Lee Rodarte: She’s told me she shot up before, but…

Detective 1:  Yeah.

Lee Rodarte: Never in front of me.

Detective 1:  Okay, and then she comes and gets in the car with you?

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 1:  Is your car a two door or four door?

Lee Rodarte: Four door.

Detective 1: Four door. Does she get in the front seat, back seat?

Lee Rodarte: She gets in the back and I ask why she got in the back.

Detective 1:  Okay.

Lee Rodarte: Um, and she was like “I just don’t want anybody to see me”, you know.

Detective 2: And when did you get in, too?

Lee Rodarte: Um, she said “you can come back here, and we can talk”

Detective 1:  Okay.

Lee Rodarte: So, I got out and got in the back seat.

Detective 1:  Okay so you guys are both in the back seat now?

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 1:  Okay, gotcha. Alright, alright. I wasn’t sure. Um, and then how the conversation went basically you’re telling her to leave you alone. Stop harassing you or why are you telling people we’re having sex and you guys; um you don’t want to jeopardize your job.

Lee Rodarte: I just told her, you know, especially since she was high I was like “we just don’t need to have anything to do with each other” and uh, she said “fuck you, I’m going to keep doing this” and whatever. So…

Detective 1:  Alright.

Lee Rodarte: So, I got out and…

[edited]

Detective 1: And then you got back in and then what did you say to her?

Lee Rodarte: Um, I said “you know, could you leave me alone? Like, I’m serious, I don’t want to talk to you.” And she said, “fuck you, why’d you do that?” And I said, she continued to say that she was going to do whatever she wants and say what she wants no matter what and I knew in my mind it was because she was high.

Detective 1:  Yeah, so what did you say to all that? [cross talk] Obviously you got to get pissed.

Lee Rodarte: Yeah, I got aggravated.

Detective 1: I would too.

Lee Rodarte: I got frustrated and I said [edited] and then…

Detective 1:  Now you [edited]

Lee Rodarte: No you go ahead.

Detective 1:  Um, we were told that had happened before to her car. Have you heard that?

Lee Rodarte: Um, I didn’t hear that her car was vandalized before.

Detective 1:  You have?

Lee Rodarte: No.

Detective 1:  Okay, so you didn’t know about that.

Lee Rodarte: No.

Detective 1:  Okay. Same deal, okay. Alright. Okay, what were you saying something about, the um, you were, did you get back in the car?

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 1:  And did you get in the front seat or back seat?

Lee Rodarte: I got in the front seat.

Detective 1:  Okay. That time you got in the front seat. Where is she?

Lee Rodarte: She was in the back seat still and at that point I said, you know, “now leave me alone”. She responded [edited] and she said, “fuck you” you know, “I’ll do what I want” and she got out, and it looked like she was either texting or calling somebody.

Detective 1:  Okay.

Lee Rodarte: Um, because as she started walking towards the, there’s an entrance to the, um, to the plaza…

Detective 1:  Okay, closer towards the 295.

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 1:  Okay.

Lee Rodarte: I wouldn’t say she was walking along the edge of the plaza, but she was walking maybe towards this way and I would say an older model Ford pickup…

Detective 1:  Mm-hm

Lee Rodarte: Green.

Detective 1:  Okay.

Lee Rodarte: Uh, drove past me and around, and she got in.

Detective 1:  Okay. So, um, she, had she, when you guys are talking in the car back and forth, she’s not, is she calling somebody while you guys are talking back and forth on the phone?

Lee Rodarte: Um, I didn’t see, she didn’t call anybody, no. She had her phone in her hand.

Detective 1:  Yeah.

Lee Rodarte: But um, but I don’t think she texts anybody.

Detective 1:  So, she gets out of the car with you and starts walking this direction.

Lee Rodarte: I was in the car.

Detective 1:  You were in the car, but she got out.

Lee Rodarte: Yes.

Detective 1:  Now you’re in the front seat. So, she gets out of the back seat and starts walking towards, or in the direction of, not necessarily paralleling San Jose, but she’s walking towards 295 or down towards that entrance area, um, and then she has her phone and you thought she was calling somebody.

Lee Rodarte: Um, she was, she had it in her hand and it looked like, I mean, I couldn’t tell if she was texting or not or anything…

Detective 1:  But she had her phone out.

Lee Rodarte: She had her phone out and she was looking at it. And then, uh, it looked like she was going to put it up to her ear and then the green truck came around …

Detective 1:  Okay.

Lee Rodarte: And

Detective 1:  So how long do you think, um, it was between the time she got out and started using her phone and that green truck pulled up?

Lee Rodarte: Um, maybe five minutes.

Detective 1:  Okay, so wow. So, if she called somebody, they got there in five minutes to pick her up.

Lee Rodarte: I mean, like I said it looked like she, she was going to call somebody and that’s when the green truck came around and she got in.

Detective 1:  Okay. Okay. She gets in the truck. What happened at that point?

Lee Rodarte: Um, they drove back around, kind of looped around a little bit

Detective 1:  Which way did they drive?

Lee Rodarte: So, she was say, here. The green truck comes here, and then kind of like, loops around, and it looked like, I guess they exited that way and at that point I left.

Detective 2: They exited going which way down [inaudible]?

Lee Rodarte: Um, toward [inaudible]. I guess to leave the, uh…

Detective 1:  So, they come out of the back side of this bank, like this way…

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 1:  Towards Clair and San Jose.

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 1:  And then you pull out. Which way do you go?

Lee Rodarte: Um, I go around and then go out…

Detective 1:  The same way.

Lee Rodarte: The same way, yeah.

Detective 1:  And where do you go from there?

Lee Rodarte: From there, I go home.

Detective 1:  Go straight home.

Detective 2: Tell me your route that you went.

Lee Rodarte: Uh, 295 all the way to Peach Blvd, Peach Blvd to Grove Park.

Detective 1:  How long does that usually take you? Depending on traffic obviously.

Lee Rodarte: Mmm… [inaudible] I think it usually takes me about 25 minutes or so.

Detective 1:  Okay. What happened to your neck?

Lee Rodarte: That was self-inflicted, actually.

Detective 1:  Why?

Lee Rodarte: I just been having a hard time, uh, I couldn’t…

Detective 2: To your neck?

Lee Rodarte: Yeah and [displays arm]

Detective 2: What did you use?

Lee Rodarte: A knife.

Detective 2: When did you do that?

Lee Rodarte: Um.. sometime in July.

Detective 2: You did that in July and it’s still…

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 2:  Bloody-ish.

Lee Rodarte: Well, it’s, I kind of peel the scab here and there at work. [inaudible] stuff like that. I peeled it last night working.  Um, this was coming off a bit today, so I peeled that a little bit.

Detective 1:  Okay, let me see.

Lee Rodarte: But this and this was the same night. This one was just a lot worse…

Detective 1:  Yeah.

Lee Rodarte: Than this one was.

Detective 1:  Okay, and this was in July?

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 1:  Like a few weeks back?

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 1:  Okay. Okay. So, who, could you see who the person in the truck was?

Lee Rodarte: Um, the truck had fairly tinted windows. I saw a baseball cap.

Detective 1:  Yeah. Okay. Guy, girl, white, black?

Lee Rodarte:  I couldn’t really tell, if it was a guy or a girl. Um, I just remember seeing the truck drive and her get in.

Detective 1:  Yeah.

Lee Rodarte: I’m sitting in the front and the truck drives right past me and I saw a baseball cap through the passenger window. Um, but…

Detective 1:  So, it seemed like she knew the person?

Lee Rodarte: I mean, she got right in.

Detective 1:  Had you ever, um, seen that truck before?

Lee Rodarte: No.

Detective 1:  Never.

Lee Rodarte: No.

Detective 1:  Have you seen it since then?

Lee Rodarte: No.

Detective 1: Did she say…

Detective 2: Why… Go ahead.

Detective 1: Did she say anything to you when she got out of the car other than fuck you?

Lee Rodarte: She was just like “fuck you. I’m going to do what I want.”

Detective 1:  She doesn’t say anything other than that? Okay.

Detective 2: Why didn’t you mention this before since we’ve been looking for this girl? I mean, don’t you think this information [cross talk]

Lee Rodarte: I mean it definitely, it definitely does. And I regret not saying anything before. Um, I mean, I talked to Chelsea and she said, “you need to tell them everything you know”.

Detective 1:  When did you talk to Chelsea? You talked to Chelsea about this?

Lee Rodarte: Yes. Um, the day that it happened. Because, I mean, her whole issue was me hanging out with Savannah prior.

Detective 1:  Sure, and if Savannah is out of the picture then you guys can be free to have your relationship, be back together.

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 1:  Yeah, I mean. Savannah is in the way, in essence. She kind of creeped in, she sounds like an ass to you. If she’s out there telling people you guys are having sex, or if you are, um then she’s the one pushing your buttons, she’s pushing Chelsea…

Lee Rodarte: I mean I told Chelsea I was going to tell her to leave me alone.

Detective 1:  You were going to tell Savannah?

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 1:  When did you tell Chelsea that?

Lee Rodarte: Um, I believe it was Tuesday night, maybe.

Detective 1:  Tuesday. Okay. Um, and you, how do you guys talk? Facebook? Text?

Lee Rodarte: Text message.

Detective 1:  Okay. And do you have a Facebook?

Lee Rodarte: No.

Detective 1:  You don’t have one at all?

Lee Rodarte: Um… I had one. I deactivated it, maybe a month or two ago.

Detective 1:  It’s still there, just don’t use it or…

Lee Rodarte: I deactivated it the account.

Detective 1:  Okay, so you don’t even have one that’s out there then.

Lee Rodarte: No. Um, I did have one when Savannah and I first started talking. That was kind of how we talked.

Detective 1: A way for you guys to talk without Chelsea knowing what was going on. I’m not telling Chelsea I’m just…

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 1:  So, when I come up and talk to you yesterday, I’m not threatening, I’m talking to everybody up there, what?

Lee Rodarte: I freaked out, to be honest with you.

Detective 1:  That this girl is missing?

Lee Rodarte: Yes.

Detective 1:  Okay, but you know she’s been missing. I mean, you knew from, from essence from day one, that she’s been missing. And you um, you freaked out [cross talk]

Lee Rodarte: Obviously you know, you know I was the last one to see her, so I was a little bit scared about that. Um, and…

Detective 1:  How do you know, you just said you weren’t the last one to see her, you just said somebody in a truck…

Lee Rodarte: Well, I mean, the last one to see her at Bone Fish. Last one she’s heard from, had contact that anybody knows of.

Detective 1:  Sure.

Lee Rodarte: Um, and I know, thought that I had a warrant out already.

Detective 1:  Okay. What’s the warrant for?

Lee Rodarte: Uh, I didn’t go to a court date for a ticket.

Detective 1:  Okay. Okay. But I talked to you last night and I didn’t have handcuffs, I wasn’t threatening in any way…

Lee Rodarte: Definitely not but I mean…

Detective 1:  And I left so what were you, what were you, if you were worried you were going to get arrested then it would have happened.

Lee Rodarte: Well, that’s another reason that uh, my, Chelsea called me, and I said “you know, I told them I didn’t know anything, what do I do now, you know, I already…”

Detective 1:  When did you tell Chelsea that? When did you talk to her?

Lee Rodarte: Um, about

Detective 1:  It had to be after last night so was it today?

Lee Rodarte: No. I didn’t talk to her today.

Detective 1:  Okay, so how was I up there talking to you at about 11 o’clock but you talked to her after?

Lee Rodarte: I’m sorry, it was earlier in the day. I, cause, obviously I told her what happened, the day that it happened. Um, and told her that I was going to tell Savannah to leave me alone.

Detective 1:  Okay.

Lee Rodarte: The day before. And after I told her about what happened about me, you know, getting in the car with some guy. Um, she, we talked a little bit just about, you know, how it’s kind of crazy, you know what I’m saying. And I said, “you know, she hasn’t hung out with the best of people in her past.”

Detective 1:  Okay.

Lee Rodarte: Um, she asked if I knew who it was. Said “no”. Um, just told her it was a green truck. Um, and then everything happened, and her mom and police came up there and everything like that, so we talked Thursday night. And she said, “you need to tell somebody”.

Detective 1:  Okay.

Lee Rodarte: And I was like, how, I don’t know what to do, I’m scared. You know, I don’t want to get in trouble for, you know, anything or have anything, you know, be a suspect or anything like that. Which, I mean, was obviously not the right decision to make.

Detective 1:  Yeah, yeah.

Lee Rodarte: Because now…

[cross talk]

Detective 2: We could have been three days ahead with this.

Lee Rodarte: Obviously. Obviously now it looks, um…

Detective 1:  So, um, so you’re saying that there’s a green, what kind of truck was it?

Lee Rodarte: It looked like a Ford. Mid-90’s.

Detective 1:  Mm-hm. Yeah.

Lee Rodarte: It was a two door. Maybe the one with the little third door that you open from the side.

Detective 1: Okay. Um, well, the good thing about that is, um, we should be able to verify all of that, all of this kind of thing, so that won’t be a problem at all. Um, yeah, I’m just, I don’t know. So you said you told her that you had talked to us, but I don’t think, chronologically I don’t think that matches up.

Lee Rodarte: We, we talked Thursday and…

Detective 1:  Not last night [inaudible]

Lee Rodarte: No. We talked Thursday after like, her mom and everything was on the news.

Detective 1: Yeah.

Lee Rodarte: And she called me and was like “hey everything is all over the news. Uh, you need to, you need to tell somebody you know. She said “Call the hotline” or something like that.

Detective 2: Did you call the hotline?

Lee Rodarte: Um, I told her I did just because in my head I wasn’t, I was scared to call that night.

Detective 2: So, but did you ever call the hotline?

Lee Rodarte: No.

Detective 1: So, this, you haven’t told anyone about this yet, other than Chelsea.

Lee Rodarte: Chelsea is the only person that knows.

Detective 1:  Okay. Okay. You …

Lee Rodarte: Just because I felt like I could, you know, [cross talk]

Detective 1:  So how did that conversation go with you and Chelsea, um?

Lee Rodarte: She kept asking me what happened, you know, what happened. And I would tell her and she said it’s crazy. Um, and then she told me that, you know, I need to call somebody and let them know that I was talking to her Wednesday, um, before the news said she went missing.

Detective 1: Yeah.

Lee Rodarte: And I said I would.

Detective 1:  Okay.

Lee Rodarte: And I didn’t.

Detective 1:  How did, how did the conversation end with you guys?

Lee Rodarte: She was, she told me, she basically said she’s not going to, she doesn’t want to associate with me because I talked to Savannah on Wednesday. [cross talk]

Detective 1:  You already told her you were going to do that.

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 1: Okay, so, here…

Lee Rodarte: See, the thing with, me and Chelsea would argue all the time about me not telling Savannah…

Detective 1: To cut it off or whatever.

Lee Rodarte: Yeah. Yeah.

Detective 1:  But you go up, and you meet, Chelsea knows you’re going to go meet Savannah Wednesday afternoon.

Lee Rodarte: Yes.

Detective 1:  She knows that. Afterwards, do you guys talk about how that conversation went?

Lee Rodarte: Yes.

Detective 1: Okay, so you guys, so she knows how the conversation ended.

Lee Rodarte: Yes.

Detective 1: And you told her that night, Wednesday night, about the truck and about the [edited]. Was there ever, you just called her and told her?

Lee Rodarte: No, we spoke first via text.

Detective 1: Okay, um. So, you text her from your phone [edited] so that’s on your phone?

Lee Rodarte: Yes.

Detective 1: Okay, so that text message is on your phone?

Lee Rodarte: No.

Detective 1: Why not?

Lee Rodarte: [Edited] You know, they said Savannah was missing, ‘cause I freaked out. I was like, holy crap.

Detective 1: Yeah. That sounds like, sounds crazy.

Lee Rodarte: Which is, which is… I mean obviously me sending a picture of one of the things they pointed out on the news kind of, scared me.

Detective 1: Sure, absolutely. Um, so how, how, did you all get together or talk anymore Wednesday night? How, did she do a follow up with you? How did the conversation go? How did the rest of Wednesday go?

Lee Rodarte: Um, we, she called me on my way home. Um, and you know, asked where I was. I told her, I was like “pulling into my neighborhood”. Um, and then we just talked about the situation. She asked what I said to Savannah. What Savannah said to me and you know [edited] Because she was texting me while Savannah and I were talking and I didn’t reply because we were talking and, you know, we were going back and forth so I didn’t text her back. So I told her I’m not ignoring you, we were talking [edited] So she called me and asked me what I was doing, I said I was in my neighborhood, about to go home. Uh, went home. Uh, we texted a little bit more here and there. She asked me what I was doing, told her I was eating. I sent her a picture after I got out of the shower because she was like “oh you haven’t gotten any pics” this and that so um as I was getting out of the shower I got the text message and texted her a picture of me getting out of the shower and uh she said she didn’t believe I was home or something like that.

Detective 1: Okay.

Lee Rodarte: So I sent her a picture. And other than I hung out at the house.

Detective 1: Okay.

Detective 2: By yourself?

Lee Rodarte: No. I have a roommate.

Detective 2: Okay, what’s his name?

Lee Rodarte: Aaron. A-A-R-O-N. Bieger. B-I-E-G-E-R.

Detective 2: B-I-E-G-E-R.

Lee Rodarte: Yeah, he’s um,

Detective 1: P or B?

Lee Rodarte: B.

Detective 1: B. Okay, he’s what? I’m sorry.

Lee Rodarte: He’s who I moved in with.

Detective 1: Okay. So, Wednesday night over at your house it’s you and Aaron.

Lee Rodarte: Yeah.

Detective 1: Okay. Okay.

Detective 2: Is Aaron there when you get home?

Lee Rodarte: No.

Detective 2: What time did he get home?

Lee Rodarte: Uh, 11ish.

Detective 1: Okay.

Lee Rodarte: A little bit after.

Detective 2: So before that you just hung out at the house by yourself and ate?

Lee Rodarte: Um, I ate some dinner, took a shower, Chelsea actually came over Wednesday night, if I’m not mistaken.

Detective 1: Okay.

Detective 2: And what did you all do?

Lee Rodarte: Just hung out, watch movies, drunk a couple beers.

Detective 1: Okay. Um. So where, where, when she’s in the car what is she, what does she say to you about what her plans are? So, she’s scheduled to work that night. So, she’s going to work?

Lee Rodarte: We didn’t talk about, uh, I assumed she was going to work. Um, she was in her uniform.  But she didn’t say, when she got out of the car she doesn’t say anything after she gets out of the car.

Detective 1: And she gets in that truck she, lets be honest, we wont even call her she, Savannah, okay. Um, Savannah, again with this picture if we are using it in the same place, from where you’re drawing was, they drove over here. You’re here, and you, they drive out over here. Do they stop? Does she stop and get out and go to work? Does the truck keep going?

Lee Rodarte: Um, I didn’t see once they turned the corner past the ATM. Once she got in and they left, I left. Cause I just…

Detective 1: Did you run into them on the road anywhere?

Lee Rodarte: No.

Detective 1: Okay. Did she call you later on or text you later on?

Lee Rodarte: Savannah? No.

Detective 1: No other contact with her?

Lee Rodarte: No.

Detective 1: So, where’s Savannah right now?

Lee Rodarte: I don’t know.

Detective 1: Where would I find her?

Lee Rodarte: I don’t know.

Detective 1: That’s my prime objective is to find her.

Lee Rodarte: Definitely.

Detective 1: I think time’s running out on her and I think that….

Lee Rodarte: I mean, I’ve, I should have said something to you guys when I talked to you guys.

Detective 1: Oh yeah yeah yeah.

Lee Rodarte: I should have said something Wednesday or when Thursday when it was brought to everyone’s attention.

Detective 1: So, tell me how I go from nice guy, never met you, you seem like a nice guy, I come up and talk to you, again, you know, you agreed there was nothing threatening or anything about our conversation. Just asking you for some simple basic things. Where we just talked for a few minutes. And you, um, didn’t tell me this story. I’m not going to say the truth because I think there’s holes in this story too.

Lee Rodarte: Okay.

Detective 1: Um, so you don’t tell me this story and then today we’re talking again because I brought you down to talk to you because I found holes in that story that didn’t match up and now you’re telling me another story that has holes that does not match up. So, where’s Savannah?

Lee Rodarte: I don’t know.

Detective 2: Why were you being hesitant about Chelsea being at your house? First you said that you were by yourself, you ate alone

Lee Rodarte: Yes, I ate dinner alone. Yes.

Detective 2: Right, but that’s not true either because you ordered Pa Pa Johns for you and Chelsea. [cross talk]

Lee Rodarte: I ate, I ate corndogs earlier in the evening and when Chelsea got there, she was hungry, so I said…

Detective 2: But you clearly said you were alone.

Lee Rodarte: When I ate the corndogs, yeah.

Detective 2: Okay, yeah. Well you know what I’m saying.

Lee Rodarte: I remember specifically texting Chelsea “I’m eating corndogs”.

Detective 1: And all that is on your phone?

Lee Rodarte: No.

Detective 2: Why would you delete all that?

Detective 1: Just a conversation with you and Chelsea you would delete about “I’m having corndogs”?

Lee Rodarte: That text might be on there.

Detective 1: Okay, but she…

Lee Rodarte: We got to talking about me going up to Bone Fish and everything like that.

Detective 1: Yeah. Yeah.

Lee Rodarte: Chelsea said, you know “don’t involve me”, you know…

Detective 1: Does Chelsea believe you?

Lee Rodarte: She, I don’t know…

Detective 1: Okay. Um, just so you know, Chelsea thinks you’re bullshitting. Okay, because we’ve talked to her. We’ve talked to a lot of people.

Lee Rodarte: I mean, that’s about the gist of, you know, Chelsea’s attitude towards me for the most part for the past months. Ever since me and Savannah.

Detective 2: Is that because you’re a liar? I mean, to her, in the past?

Lee Rodarte: That’s pretty much what she labels me as, yeah. Because…

Detective 2: Do you lie?

Lee Rodarte: Not about every, no, obviously to her about hanging out with Savannah and stuff like that…

Detective 2: Okay.

Detective 1:  And you lied to me, about Savannah.

Lee Rodarte: Yes sir.

Detective 1: Okay. So, I’m just, I’m not trying to say anything…

Lee Rodarte: I understand.

Detective 1: I’m just trying to lay out the facts. I want to find this girl. I need to find her.

Lee Rodarte: I understand.

Detective 1: Here’s a couple reasons I need to find her. One is, um, I’m hoping that she is still alive. And that’s really, I’m really do, I’m holding out for that, um, and if she’s not alive then I think she and her family are due that knowledge. I think they need some closure. Um, cause I think the reality is, if somebody you know is dead somewhere a parent would want to know.  I think if, do you have kids?

Lee Rodarte: No.

Detective 1: Okay so, one day when you have kids, you, what beyond certainty is, is whatever kind of person she is, and I’m not about to say what kind of person she is, um, because I’m not making any judgements. I’m saying, this human being, if she’s alive, then I want to find her. I need to make sure she’s okay because it’s been several days now, she hasn’t been around. Some, there’s, things that happen to the human body and some people can’t stand a lot of things that can transpire. But the other thing is is if she’s not alive this family deserves better than this. This family deserves better than somebody who works with her and who has knowledge but won’t tell the police because they’re worried about their own ass. Because that’s pretty cheap. I’m going to be honest with you

Lee Rodarte: I agree

Detective 1: Your feelings in it? I don’t really care about your feelings. What I care about finding her. So, where is she?

Lee Rodarte: I don’t know where she is.

Detective 1: Where is Savannah?

Lee Rodarte: I don’t know.

Detective 1: I need to know Savannah is so I can let her family is.

Lee Rodarte: I don’t know where she is.

Detective 1: You don’t know because you had something done with her and you weren’t involved with that part? I don’t know. Tell me something. What can I work with?

Lee Rodarte: I told you the last time I saw her.

Detective 2: That’s not true because we have proof. We have proof. And that’s why we’re sitting here, Lee. At this point where we need that for her. I mean, I look at that little girl and I think of my little girl. My little girl that’s her age. That’s who I think about. If that was my little girl, I couldn’t imagine. I don’t care what she said about you or whatever. But my little girl is that age.

Detective 1: Maybe…

Detective 2: And you’re not telling the truth.

Detective 1: Maybe something get’s out of hand in the car.

Lee Rodarte: I didn’t do anything.

Detective 2: Okay, you didn’t do anything, but she was in your car. She never got out of your car. She never got out of your car, Lee.

Detective 1: We’re not saying you did anything. I’m trying to find her. I didn’t say you did anything.

Lee Rodarte: I don’t know where she is.

Detective 2: Well, we can prove that you left with her in the car. So please, do, do, do everybody a favor and just tell us.

Detective 1: Where is she?

Lee Rodarte: I don’t know.

Detective 1: You got to be able to separate. We’re not saying you did anything to her. I don’t know, she’s on drugs. Maybe she passed out. I don’t know. I’m not in that car with you guys. I know that she’s in that car with you. I have proof of all of this.

Detective 2: Okay I’m going to ask you Lee, you tell us now if you’re being honest [inaudible] are you being honest?

Lee Rodarte: Yes.

Detective 2: Okay then let’s start being honest. She never got out of your back seat. Lee, she never got out of your back seat. Video cameras don’t lie. How do you know, how do you know, how do you think I know this information, Lee? I wasn’t there. But a video camera caught it.

Detective 1: Tell me what happened.

Lee Rodarte: I don’t know.

Detective 1: How did, how, what happened to her? Was it an overdose? Is that what happened? I don’t know. I’m not in the car with you guys. You just said she was in your car and she had admittedly done heroin. Bodies overdose all the time, is that what happens? Did she overdose?

Detective 2: Okay, well so tell us when you left with her in the car, that is what is shown, we can’t make up that. We can’t falsify video camera, Lee. I’m not lying to you. Because you know I’m telling the truth because you know what’s on the video. How else would I know that? I don’t unless I have the video. Where did you go with her?

Lee Rodarte: I didn’t go anywhere with her.

Detective 2: You did.

Lee Rodarte: No.

Detective 2: You did. So, the video cameras lie?

Lee Rodarte: I don’t know this, I mean…

Detective 2: Well, I’m telling you, I’m telling you I’m not lying. I’m not making that up. That’s why I’m so passionate about this. This is someone child. You might not have kids, but damn it, she’s someone’s kid. It’s not fair to her mom with stage four cancer. When all she wants to know is where her daughter is but have this man sitting over here. A 28-year-old man, that first says you haven’t seen her, you didn’t see her that day, to now the roles have reversed a little bit, because we have been doing our background okay? And now you’re saying that she was sitting in your car, which all lines up with the video, actually, I’m glad you said you got in the back seat with her, all that lines up [edited]. You know what doesn’t line up? That passenger door comes open, and shuts, opens and shuts. She never gets out of that car. And you drive off. She never gets out of that car. There is no green truck. And that’s not right to her. We are fact finders, Lee. We don’t have anything personal against you.

Detective 1: No, no. Not at all. It’s over. Just tell us what happened.  Where is she?

Detective 2: We’re fact finders, just doing our job.

[Rodarte shakes head “no”]

Detective 2: No, no, no. Where did you go with her? Where did you go with her, Lee. You’re human, you’re human, you’re a man. Where did you go with her? I know you’re not that cruel inside. Seriously, where did you go with her?

Detective 1: Maybe, maybe you don’t know where she is now. Where did go with her?

Detective 2:  Please. Please. I’m begging you, Lee. Please. Please tell us. Please don’t make us waste any more of our time. Just tell us. Please tell us, please. I’m begging you; I know you’re not evil. Just tell us where she is. I’m begging, please. Please. Can you please just tell me? Is that how you want it, people to think. I know you’re not an evil person. I don’t see that in you. I don’t see that in your history. I don’t hear that those things about you at work. Please tell us where you went with her. She never got out of your car. Please tell us, please, please. I’m begging you. For her family. Please. Please. She didn’t get out of her car and you know that obviously. Please. Please, Lee. I’m begging you as a human.

Lee Rodarte: I don’t know.

Detective 2: You do.

Lee Rodarte: Like

Detective 2: Just please, Lee. Please. Please don’t make us do this any longer.

Detective 1: For her, for her, for her family. [cross talk] Just tell us where she is. Where did you go?

Detective 2: Can you, can you just tell us? Where did you go with her then?

Detective 1: Where did you go with her? Can you at least tell us that?

Detective 2: Can you at least tell us that part? Where did you go with her afterwards? She didn’t get out of your car and you know that obviously

Detective 1: Yeah [inaudible] that’s why we are here. Just tell us where. Where did you go with her? Tell us that. At least put us in that direction. I owe her family. We’ve been, no one, we are not saying that you intentionally did anything. Just tell us where you went.  Please.

Detective 2: Lee.

Detective 1: You’ve been doing great. You already told us everything we already know.

Detective 2: It’s not right, Lee. This isn’t right for her family or for anybody. No one should have to go through this. I’m just, I’m just human like you are. She’s human. Her family. Everyone has feelings. Please. Now’s, now’s the time to tell us because I don’t think you’re any kind of evil person and I feel like you are going to tell us the truth. I do, I do believe that you’re going to tell us the truth because I believe you do have a conscious. Now’s the time. Please.

Detective 1: [inaudible] Where’d you guys go? I think you’re a good man, I think you want to do the right thing.

Detective 2: When you all left out of there you went down Clair lane and made a left on San Jose back to 295 and you get up on 295. Okay. Where else did you go before you went home? I mean I know you eventually went home.

Lee Rodarte: I didn’t go anywhere. I went straight home.

Detective 2: Okay, so what did you all do when you got home? Savannah was with you. She was with you. And that’s okay at that point but I know that, here does she go from there? Is she still at your house?

Lee Rodarte:  No.

Detective 2: Okay. Is she still in your car?

Lee Rodarte: No.

Detective 2: Okay. Well then, where is she?

Lee Rodarte: I don’t know where she is.

Detective 2: Okay. Where did you last drop her off at?

Lee Rodarte: I didn’t drop her off.

Detective 2: Okay, tell me.

Detective 1: Where did you guys go?

Lee Rodarte: We went to my house, we did some drugs, hung out for a little. Then she said she was going to catch an Uber home.

Detective 2: Okay, and did she call Uber?

Lee Rodarte: She pulled her phone out, looked like she was using it, I wasn’t hoovering over her. I was pretty high. I wasn’t, she told me she was leaving. She walked out the door.

Detective 2: What was going on in the back seat? What was going on in the back seat for the doors to be kicked open? She kicked open that door three times, Lee. She kicked it. We saw it. And you know I’m not making it up because I wouldn’t know this, because I wasn’t there, I would not know this, unless we had video or it. Correct? Yes. Okay, I’m not trying to trick you. I’m just a fact finder.

Detective 1: We’re to going to lie to you.

Detective 2: That door was kicked open three times. Obviously, something went wrong in that back seat. [inaudible] tell me about that. What happened in the back seat, did she get mad at you?

[edited]

Lee Rodarte: We got in arguments plenty of times where she said doesn’t care what happens or anything like that.

Detective 2: Let’s be honest, no one’s going to go with some man willingly after all that. No one’s going to do it. Please tell me where Savannah is.

Lee Rodarte: I don’t know.

Detective 2: You do know and right now is the time. You’re so close and I know, I know you’re going to tell me. I know you are because I just, I just know you are ‘cause I know you want to do the right thing. You’re scared to do the right thing. I get it.

Lee Rodarte: Yeah

Detective 2: I do.  I’m not…

Lee Rodarte: Can you just tell me what I’m being charged with, please?

Detective 2: Yes.

Detective 1: I want, I want to find her.

Detective 2: I don’t know that yet but at least I do know that your, [inaudible] for your arrest for the DWLS

Lee Rodarte: For what?

Detective 2: For the DWLS. [cross talk] Where, where is Savannah?

Lee Rodarte:  So, what am I being charged with now? Driving with a suspended license?

Detective 2: I don’t know yet. I got to talk to the attorney that’s sitting out there watching this interview. Where’s Savannah?

Lee Rodarte: I don’t know.

Detective 2: You do know. So you’re going to make me, and our team, and this whole entire sheriff’s office and every person in this community to get out there after, you know, we, after they know the truth of who she left with and see’s the struggle in the back seat of your car? And you’re going to make all of us go and search Jacksonville for her when you could easily tell me where she is? Is that what we’re going to put everybody through?

Detective 1: Think about it. Alright. Sometimes people do wrong things. Alright? Sometimes people make mistakes. It’s what you do afterwards. We got a family that needs closure. They’re now coming to the reality that she’s no longer with us. I need closure for them. When stuff gets out that you guys left together and all that type of stuff, do you want people to remember you as the guy who said “okay, look, I’m going to do the right thing”? Or do you want your family and everybody else to think that you’re some evil, heartless person who won’t tell us where she is? Why would you put your family through all of that? I don’t think you’re that kind of guy. I don’t think you’re evil. Something got out of hand, I get it.  What you do after that? Here’s what you do, you do the right thing now. Just tell us where she is. Closure for her family.

Detective 2: Lee, we understand. Listen, we understand.

Detective 1: We’re not trying to hit you on anything.  I’m telling you we are thinking of this girl and her family and your family.

Lee Rodarte: She was…

Detective 1: Please tell me where to go find her. That’s how people will remember you.

[Edited]

Detective 1: We can work with that. You got to do the right thing now. You can do this. You can do the right thing.

[20 minutes edited out]

[Both detectives leave]

[Detective 1 Returns]

Detective 1: I just want to clarify something with you real quick? Okay, um when you [inaudible] I appreciate you being honest about everything.

[Edited]

Detective 1: Um, Have a seat over here. You want some more water or anything?

Lee Rodarte: No.

Detective 1: Give me a few minutes to finish go talking to her.

[Detective 1 exits]

Lee Rodarte: [crying]

[Officer enters]

Officer: Excuse me. Let me get a few more photographs of your hands. [Police radio] Just your hands. I want you to stand over here. Oh yes, hold them like that.

[Police radio]

[Six photo snaps]

Turn them to the other side.

[police radio]

[Six photo snaps]

[Officer exits]

[Rodarte knocks on door]

Staff 1: Yes sir.

Lee Rodarte: Uh, I just have a question.

Staff 1: Yes sir.

Lee Rodarte: One, am I going to be able to get a phone call at some time.

Staff 1: Well yes sir. We’ll, we’ll take you over to the jail and you’ll be able to make a call over there. Yes sir. What’s your other question?

Lee Rodarte: Uh, never mind. The other question is really… ridiculous.

Staff 1: Oh, okay. Alright. Well if you need anything just knock again and I’ll, we’ll try to..

Lee Rodarte: You guys don’t smoke in here, no?

Staff 1: No sir, unfortunately it’s a no smoking building. So, okay.

[staff 1 closes door]

Lee Rodarte: [inaudible] [crying] Damn it, why are you stupid?

Lee Rodarte: Fuck Chelsea. I should have realized she never loved me [cry].  Ah.

[people in another room]

Lee Rodarte: [sigh and grunts]

Lee Rodarte: [inaudible cries] going to jail. My mom’s going to die when I’m in jail. Can’t believe. Fucking idiot, Lee. Fucking stupid. Why are you here? Go…Jeez.

Lee Rodarte: [paces room then puts head on wall] [inaudible cries: what’s wrong with you?] Stupid. [inaudible] it’s so stupid. I’m fucked. Fucked.

Lee Rodarte: [paces room] [inaudible cries] [drinks water] [cries] I guess [inaudible] never tell the truth. [inaudible] I never [inaudible] I loved you. This was never meant to be. What Chelsea thinks. Fuck Chelsea and what she thinks. Fuck it. You did the right thing. She was s’cold. I’m so sorry Savannah, I’m so sorry. Stop! Fuckin’ get killed in jail.

Lee Rodarte: [getting tissues] [inaudible]

Lee Rodarte: Oh man.  Fuck [inaudible], you’re a piece of shit. Savannah was nice to you.  But somebody was a bitch to you. How does that make any sense? Somebody that gave two shits about you. [inaudible] nice.

Lee Rodarte: [puts on jacket] Last time you get to wear your chef coat. Fuck me. [getting tissues]

Lee Rodarte: It’s not supposed to be you. It’s not supposed to be you, Lee. [inaudible] fucking life. God damn it, Chelsea.

Lee Rodarte:  Everything. Cold places man. Get it through your fucking head. Could have just told her to leave, no. Should have grabbed her back.

[Staff 1 enters]

Staff 1: Alright. Okay Lee. Stay right there.

Detective 1: I want to thank you again for being truthful. Um, and you’re right you did have uh one for the driving [inaudible] um, so the deal from here is, you’ll be booked in tonight. Then you will make a first appearance. Um, tomorrow depending on what time you get in or how full they are. It’ll be first thing in the morning or in the afternoon. Probably the afternoon is what I’m thinking. And then at that point you’ll uh, get to see the judge and then you’ll be assigned an attorney but tonight you should be able to make your phone call. Okay? Um, I was going to ask you but I didn’t want to bug you a minute go. I was out there talking to her. One of the [edited]

Lee Rodarte: Alright

[All exits]

Bryan Greenwell Interrogation Transcript

On May 13, 2016,  Bryan Greenwell (also known as Brian Greenwall) shot and killed Jennifer Cain and critically wounded Derrell Wilson. Greenwell’s fiancé Jodie Cecil was there when the crime happened in a Shelby Park apartment. The living victim, Wilson, was crucial in the investigation. When police showed the couple an interview where Wilson implicates them in the crime while he is in poor condition in the hospital, they both admit their involvement. A summary of the case can be found here.  

Bryan Greenwell Interrogation Transcript

[door slams]

Investigator: Hey Bryan, what’s happenin’ man?

Bryan Greenwell:  What’s happenin’?

Investigator: My name is detective Royce, [inaudible]. Sorry it took me a little while to get over here..

Bryan Greenwell: [inaudible]

Investigator: Talking to Jodie.

Bryan Greenwell: Jodie?

Investigator: Mm-hm.

Bryan Greenwell: How she been doing?

Investigator: She’s a little upset.

Bryan Greenwell: About what?

Investigator: Well, that’s what we’re here to talk about. She’s a little upset, um… I want to tell you that she, I’m trying to remember her exact words but it was more along the lines of “I don’t want to tell him, I don’t want him to be scared, and uh, to talk to us.” Anything else along that. “Cause I want to, I want to go talk to him”, I said “I can’t let you do that, I may be able to let you do a recorded statement or write a note but”

Bryan Greenwell: So she wrote one down?

Investigator: I have a recording. Also, I have another recording that I would like you to review as well but I can’t ask you any questions yet because you’re in custody for something else. I don’t know. I know it’s some kind of dope charge, I know you did some stuff there. So before I actually ask you anything, tell you or show you anything, I have to read you your rights. You’ve had those read before, correct?

Bryan Greenwell: No.

Investigator: You’ve never had your rights read?!

Bryan Greenwell: No. I mean, when I was younger, yeah.

Investigator: Alright so you know what I’m talking about.

Bryan Greenwell:  I know what you’re talking about, yeah.

Investigator: Well, I’m going to go through this, and I brought a picture of your kiddos. [places photo of children on table in front of Greenwell] I gave her a picture of them, too. Alright before we ask you any questions you must understand your rights. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in court of law. Right to talk to a lawyer prior to questioning or making any statements. Have them present with you while being questioned. Can’t afford to hire a lawyer, one will be appointed by the court to represent you before any questions if you desire one. You may stop the questioning or making statements at any time by refusing to answer further or requesting to consult with an attorney prior to continuing questioning or making statements. Those are your rights. And the second part of this form is just a waiver of your rights and basically says that “I read the statement of rights or had them read to me. I understand what my rights are and I’m willing to make a statement and answer some questions. I don’t want a lawyer at this time and I understand what I am doing. No promises or threats have been made, no pressure or coercion of any kind. You understand what coercion means, correct? [Greenwell nods] Okay, um. And I’m guessing you might have an idea what [Greenwell shakes head “no”] You don’t have an idea of what you might want to talk to me about?

Bryan Greenwell: No.

Investigator: Or what I want to talk to you about? Okay. And it has to do with the apartment you guys used to live at over on Shelby Street.

Bryan Greenwell: Oh, well, yeah….

Investigator: Does that ring a bell? That incident?

Bryan Greenwell: Yeah.

Investigator: What do you know about that incident?

Bryan Greenwell: As far as I know, that was supposed to been us, as far as my understanding. Just the guy, Terry Payne [spelling?] that uh, he was supposed to send somebody over to talk to us or something like that. I don’t know, ‘cause they said, well I know the guy too you know, they said something like that. And I’m not even sure if it’s him, you know what I’m sayin’? I’m just going off of what I’ve heard. That he got ripped off for some dope a few times. He got upset about it and the only reason why he wouldn’t come confront her by herself was because of me. Well, she never ripped him off for no dope anyways. It wasn’t her, it was

Investigator: So this was geared towards Jodie, is what you’re telling me?

Bryan Greenwell: Yes. And as far as I know somebody was supposed to send some people from Chicago, some black dudes. Said it’s not about the money now, it’s not about the dope, it’s about the principle. And he, Terry Payne [spelling?] told me this, and I told him I said “you better go back and tell them [inaudible] got no principle [inaudible] it seems like I’m just fucking around with my fiancée and it pulls me, you know what I’m saying? I’m involved. And he said “sorry, too late [inaudible], the call’s been made and that uh, people from .. what’d he say? New Orleans or something like that, up in luisiana up here looking for her. That’s when I noticed we started getting followed. And I’m like “hold up, you know maybe this shit is true”. I’ve been thinking it’s all, you know how people talkin’ just trying to scare somebody. And I kept noticing people following me and kept noticing people following me. And I’m like “hold the fuck up” you know? So I made a phone call and was like “dude, what the fucks going on?” He said “man” he said “I told you I would try to go talk to them”. I said “dude, you already [inaudible] tried to go talk to them and for the past, I don’t know, month and a half, something like that, everytime I walked out the door I was being followed”. And for the life of me, nobody believed me. And I mean, I told everybody. I said “man, somebody is following us. Somebody is following me or somebody is following you. Somebody.” Then I got locked up.

Investigator: What happened with that, a little.

Bryan Greenwell: That [cross talk]

Investigator: I’m not the dope police [cross talk]

Bryan Greenwell: I mean not one time did nobody ever say “police”, nobody said, I mean the whole time I told everybody I was being followed. I mean, I had people run up on me, I’d take off. Nobody said “cops” you know? So I don’t know if it’s the cops or if it was them or whoever, whatever. You know what I’m saying?  I’m like “shit”, so I done what I do. What I know best- protect myself and get the hell out of that situation for a moment. But that situation it was same thing. Two cars whipped up on me, then once I took off, yeah, he hit his lights. I’m like “I got a set of [inaudible] lights, which I do. You know what I’m saying? I got a flashlight that turns. You know what I’m saying? You click it one time and it starts flashing, you know what I mean, red, white, red, blue, them lights. You know what I’m saying? So I’m like “no one’s ever said ‘stop, police, this is the local, feds” whoever. You know what I’m saying?  So I didn’t stop. Even when we got back to the house we were staying at, not one time did anybody say “police”, “this is the police”, the whoever, blah blah. They just told me to get the fuck down or they would blow my damn brains out. I’m like “well uh” there’s a chance I got to take. Either they’re the police, and then once they started all coming up on me I noticed it was the police because all the equipment and shit like that. And I was like “well, maybe this is the cops” so I got down.

Investigator: Who all did you get arrested with that night?

Bryan Greenwell: Me, Jodie, Lala, and Chris.

Investigator: Does Lala have a real name? Everybody keeps saying Lala. Cause I’m not the dope police, I’m just curious

Bryan Greenwell: It’s uh, Laura. It’s Laura. I don’t know her last name.

Investigator: And it really doesn’t matter for me. I’m just curious because everyone says “Lala” and I’m like, “last time someone was named ‘LaLa’ was on a kids T.V. show” [laughter] Alright. Let me take you back to that apartment on Shelby. How long did ya’ll stay there?

Bryan Greenwell: Man, I can’t, I just got out of jail. I don’t know if she had that before I went in, or before right before I got out, or what. I think I was only there a couple weeks, maybe? Something like that. Maybe a little longer. I know it was like between two, two weeks. Two to three weeks. Something like that.

Investigator: And you guys never went back to that apartment?

Bryan Greenwell: Yeah, we went back.

Investigator: You did?

Bryan Greenwell: Yeah. We went back and got some of our stuff. I mean, we’ve seen the landlord and nothing was ever said.  We’ve seen cops sitting there and nothing was ever said to us. And I was thinking “well, this aint got nothing to do with us, I hope”

Investigator: Did you know those neighbors [inaudible]? Ya’ll never, You ever seen them before?

Bryan Greenwell: Yeah, we’ve seen them in passing.

Investigator: If I showed you a picture of them, would you know who they are?

Bryan Greenwell: Pretty sure I would be.

Investigator: [shows photos]

Bryan Greenwell: Yeah, yeah, that was her. Now the guy?

Investigator: Now this is a little older picture. I think he had probably just got done [inaudible]. His hair may have been a lot longer.

Bryan Greenwell: Hm, yeah. If you put long hair on him it looks like him.

Investigator: So you all didn’t have any interaction with them?

Bryan Greenwell: Nah, other than I mean, passing in the hallways or, it was just, I think it was what? One, two, two  [crosstalk] yeah. Because it was the front room, it was like a little storage or something like that. The back room was supposedly where he stored all his stuff for, I guess, the strip clubs that he owned or something. I don’t know.

Investigator: Mm-Hm. It was strip clubs, you’re right. Alright, um, what do you actually know about what happened over there? What have you heard? What do you know?

Bryan Greenwell: I just heard that somebody got shot, somebody got killed or something like that. Then we stayed away for a couple days because that’s when I found out that supposedly they were there for her, and us, you know what I’m saying? It was supposed to be us. I was like, you know, um, we made the decision to stay away for a couple of days because hell, somebody wanted to talk to her they, the landlord knew her phone number, her cell phone number, knew her name, everything else. Nobody ever tried to contact us. At least, as far as I know, nobody ever tried to contact us. Which I mean the house, the apartment wasn’t even, it was her apartment, wasn’t in my name, or nothing like that.

Investigator: Right. Alright. Did you know that there were two victims there? Did you know that?

Bryan Greenwell: No.

Investigator: Both of those two people I showed you.

Bryan Greenwell: No, they told me it was just the.. uh.. lady.

Investigator: Well, both of them were shot. And uh, this is what I want to show you.

[Investigator moves laptop over to Greenwell and moves his chair closer]

Investigator: He didn’t die.

Voice on recording: Do you remember, do you know your neighbors next door? [inaudible] Did you know who they were? If I showed you pictures of your neighbors would you know who they were? Where your neighbors involved in any of this? You recognize her? That Jodie? Your Neighbor?

Investigator: So. That’s just the start of it but

Bryan Greenwell: Okay, well lets finish it.

Investigator: No, I got a, I got a couple follow ups here.

Bryan Greenwell: Okay.

Investigator: When I showed Jodie this, she lost it.

Bryan Greenwell: She lost it like?

Investigator: Bawling crying, broke down.

Bryan Greenwell: Let me guess, said that we done it.

Investigator: She did.

Bryan Greenwell: Well.

Investigator: And before you know, I am going to tell her the same thing I told her, I said “ya’ll have some important things in front of you.” I said, “bad things happen to good people. Sometimes people get put into situations and shit didn’t go as planned.” Um, I believe that’s what happened here. I don’t think there was malicious intent going in. I think things escalated and went bad. I told her I wanted to help her try to get to the good side of this and to not paint her into a negative light on it. And I said, I told her, I said I will give you that same opportunity and tell you the same things that I have told you both the exact same things. And that’s how I want to present it. I don’t bullshit people, I’ll tell you what I’ve got. I mean…

Bryan Greenwell: Fair enough.

Investigator: I mean, I got a living victim that puts you there. I’ve got Jodie who says you were there. Now I want to hear from you, what in the world happened. Like I said, I think something went wrong, I don’t think you got there on

Bryan Greenwell: I want to hear the rest of it. What Jodie had to say.

Investigator: What Jodie had to say? I don’t have Jodie on video.

Bryan Greenwell: I thought you said you had her on

Investigator: I have it on an audio recording. I just did it. I don’t have it on a disk yet. I still have it on an actual recorder.

Bryan Greenwell: Can I hear it?

Investigator: Let me see if I can do that. I don’t even know if I can do that. It’s on this recorder that’s in my pocket right now. The same one I have on right now.

Bryan Greenwell: Well, lets find out if we can do that because, I mean…

Investigator: Is that going to change..

Bryan Greenwell: Nah man, I want to

[cross talk]

Investigator: I’m not going to play it word for word for you so you can hear her story.

Bryan Greenwell: No no no.

Investigator: I’ve been doing this a little longer than that.

Bryan Greenwell: I don’t I don’t expect you to do that either but I would like to know what she’s saying.

Investigator: I can give you the, I can give you the details of, I guess the general of what she’s said. Is that, and he goes on to say that, they were involved in a domestic situation. Then apparently, he may have been getting the best of her, and she came over for help. You guys go back to their apartment, it happened inside their apartment, you guys intervened on the good side of this to start with, trying to help her out. And things went bad from there. Does that sound, is that a fair statement of how things may have occurred?

Bryan Greenwell: No. I mean.

Investigator: It’s not.

Bryan Greenwell: I had no. Yeah, I know these people. I don’t know them personally. You know what I’m saying? I know them from that apartment. And yes, we did go over there. But, that’s it. I mean hell, if you finger print the place you can find my fingerprints on a couple things because where I walked in the room. I kind of picked some stuff up, you know, because it was laying everywhere so I was like [noises from cuffs on table while he demonstrates moving stuff over] I mean, other than that.

Investigator: Alright. I know right now you’re trying to figure out where to go with this. Because I don’t want you to start digging yourself a hole.

Bryan Greenwell:  I know what you want me to do is to commit, you know, say

Investigator: Oh, I don’t need you to, I don’t need you to. I got, you know, I’ve got Jodie’s statement. I have enough to walk out of this room right now. What I’m trying to do is try to give you an opportunity to do the same thing she just did which is go at it with the angle “we were trying to help and things just went bad”.  That’s a whole lot better then just not making a statement and me just going off him. I mean, you think I put a guy who’s paralyzed from the neck down on a ventilator with an interview like this up to twelve people on a jury that they’re not going to sympathize with him instead of you? I’ll take that all day long, twice on Sunday.

Bryan Greenwell: Well, you know [cross talk] I’m looking at it too, I’m like “yeah as it stands right now, I mean, regardless of what I say right now, I’m fucked in this situation.

Investigator: And I’m trying to say there’s a little bit of an out right here to make it better on you to not make it look like… I don’t believe you’re a cold blooded killer. You know? I don’t believe that at all. Nothing suggests that to me. I think you’re a smart guy that got involved with a situation you probably shouldn’t have. Not saying that you shouldn’t help somebody out but I’m saying shit went bad real quick. And I don’t think anybody should be judged on one thing alone, there should be a whole series of events that happened here that get to basically where we are right now. And I just want you to think about a lot of different things. And I know I’ve thrown a lot at you at one time, you know. And I, I, and I can’t say I understand where you’re at right now because I haven’t been there but I can sympathize with you.

Bryan Greenwell: I do this everytime.

Investigator: What do you mean you do this everytime.

Bryan Greenwell: I always try to protect everybody. You get that recorder off for a minute so I can ask you a question?

Investigator: This? Yeah. [shuts laptop]

Bryan Greenwell: And the one in there.

[turns off recorder in pocket and shows Greenwell]

Bryan Greenwell: Nothing else recording, right?

Investigator: I don’t know about this room, this is the corrections room so I would have to say, well, I don’t know.

Bryan Greenwell: What happens if I go with, I mean ‘cause I know the story here, you know what I’m saying? I know the whole thing, what happened

[electronic beep]

Bryan Greenwell: What was that?

Investigator: I’m guessing I just got an email ‘cause this is my actual work computer.

Bryan Greenwell: Well, look, how do I get Jodie off of all of this?

Investigator: I mean, I think, I think she’s the least copiable of anything that happened. You know, I think she was just there. Um, and what he says and what she says really jive in line with the support, they support each other in their statements. Um, but I mean honestly it’s just going through the story, and I think I know the story. If I tell you the story, would it sound anything like what I started it off as. A domestic thing that you guys got involved in, you end up in a fight, with them with a gun and it goes off, and I can’t tell you any more than that because, you know.  By any chance, does that seem like a story that, of what may have happened?

Bryan Greenwell: Yep.

Investigator: You see, we can work with that because the beginning part of it. Because there’s a big difference between you going in and saying “I’m going to f*** kill somebody” and you going in “I’m trying to help somebody” and then shit goes bad. There’s, That’s way different things there that we’re talking about. And one’s a whole lot better than the other. I mean, the end result was that people lost their lives, yes. But it’s a whole lot different when it comes to juries, when talking about charges. You know, those types of things. It’s a night and day situation.

Bryan Greenwell: I would say. Yeah. Like you say, ya’ll would paint me out to be the fucking, wow. I mean, as it stands right now, which is those two saying that shit, you all got enough to convict me on anything.

Investigator: And that’s what I’m saying. I’m not going to bullshit you. I told you that. I got enough right now, I could walk out of the room but that’s not what I want to do because I believe in getting everybody a fair shot at this. Minimum is 18 years. You know, I don’t bullshit when I talk to people. I don’t play that whole mind game or running in circles and we talk for six hours. That’s how you run a guy.  I tell you what I got, I tell you how good, I’m not going to lie if I got something that’s weak. I’m gonna be like “Hey, this is what I got, here’s your chances, fifty fifty.” This is not a fifty fifty chance kinda thing right here, I tell you that.

Bryan Greenwell: No it’s a “screwed me all the way around”

Investigator: That’s why I’m trying to give you, I want you to see how I’m trying to let you get out in front of it. Tell your part of the story on it.

Bryan Greenwell: Is there anyway I could smoke a cigarette?

Investigator: I think we could probably make that happen. We let everybody, everybody else smoke one in the basement. When we come back, finish up the story? I think we could do that. Sit back for a minute. See what we could do for you.

Bryan Greenwell: Uh, regardless of what happens you all can’t … nevermind.

Investigator: [inaudible] I think I know what you’re trying to get out and [inaudible] you don’t want anything to happen to Jodie on this. Does that sound about right?

Bryan Greenwell: Yeah.

Investigator: I really think that’s going to depend on a lot about what we talk about, what you tell me on this. I think we can minimize her involvement

Bryan Greenwell: [inaudible]

Investigator: Well, I mean like, she is there. I mean, have you ever heard of about, uh, doing a bank robbery.

Bryan Greenwell: Yeah.

Investigator: You’re the robber, you go in and rob the store. I’m just the driver. We both get in a car chase and get caught down the way. What charge do I get?

Bryan Greenwell: Accessory

Investigator: What charge do you get? It’s a robbery.

Bryan Greenwell: Yeah.

Investigator: I mean, she’s there with you. So she is a complicit, she’s complicit in this. And not including that, there’s nothing done on her behalf to help, or stay, or call or anything. So that’s her little bit of a problem but her involvement is minimal.

Bryan Greenwell: Its, she did try to.

Investigator: What did she try to do?

Bryan Greenwell: Tried to help.

Investigator: After they were shot? What did she try to do? I mean, this helps her.

Bryan Greenwell: We’ll talk, we’ll talk about it all here in a second. Let me calm down.

Investigator: Okay. Okay. I’ll give you some time, you know, get your stuff in order. See if I can set up that cigarette.

Bryan Greenwell: I appreciate it, thanks.

Investigator: Alright.

[Investigator opens door and talking with someone else]

Bryan Greenwell: A glass of water or somethin’, [inaudible]

Investigator: Yeah.

[Investigator returns to room]

Investigator: Alright, we’re gonna,

Bryan Greenwell: Hey, is Jodie still down there?

Investigator: No, they already took her back to CCC.

Other person: Is there like a count or something they need to do at a certain time or something? I don’t know.

Investigator: We’re going to go, soon as he comes back here, we’re going to go down, downstairs. We’re not going to talk about anything we talked about in here. Just going to be for you to smoke, get your thoughts together, okay? then we’ll come back in here and talk some more, some questions.

[Investigator and Greenwell leave room- brief conversation with other person]

[Investigator and Greenwell return]

investigator: Shoot it to me, I want to hear it. You know, I’ve talked to some other people, I know it’s been bothering you. Everybody has said that you have been acting different. It’s really been bothering you. So it’s been noticeable to other people. Take that weight off, throw it on me. Get it off your shoulders, man.

Bryan Greenwell: I mean, ya’ll aren’t going to try to hit me with no fucking death penalty or nothing

Investigator: No, there’s no aggravated circumstances.

Bryan Greenwell: Well, try to get this done as quick as possible. Cause I’ll be honest with ya, I can’t sit in that jail.

Investigator: I understand.

Bryan Greenwell: Jodie didn’t have nothing to do with it. She did try to get help for her, I mean I even did try but … She comes over there and says he’s over there beatin’ on her. So we walked over there. We didn’t even walk in the apartment at first. I was like, you know, “what’s going on?” Jodie didn’t even go over there at first. She was like “you go over there and see what”. Said “yeah”. Dude was over there throwing shit, breaking shit, cussing her. All three of us were standing outside, even the girl was standing outside, you know what I’m saying, and I was like “look, just leave or come over here, something”, you know what I’m saying, “or I’m gonna call the cops”. She went back inside and he grabbed ahold of her or something like that. Jodie was like, you know, “you gotta help her”. Cause I guess her [inaudible] or something like that. So I walked in there and I separated them and this and that. That’s when, to be honest with you, I don’t even, I can’t even remember how the gun came into play, for real. Well, we started, kinda wrestling around and the gun went off. And then it went off again.

Investigator: How many times do you think it went off?

Bryan Greenwell: Honestly man, I don’t even know. I mean, I was… blacked out or something like that. I don’t know. Man, it’s like… I’m guessing two or three times, three. Something like that. I remember hearing three gunshots.

Investigator: Do you remember which one you shot first?

Bryan Greenwell: No, honestly. I don’t. [inaudible] I freaked out. And I was like “man, what the fuck. I came over here to help somebody this shit happens.” I think… I know it went off once. I think she got hit first, I’m not for sure. I mean [inaudible] was still struggling and it went off again. I do remember that. And that’s when he fell on the bed. And I didn’t, I mean, I didn’t know what to do. I mean, I went over there, like you said, there was no intentions of going over there [inaudible] malice intended or nothing like that, you know?

Investigator: You remember about what time, I know this happened Friday the 13th, is when we were there and it was later in the afternoon when we got there. When do you think this might have happened? Was it on that Friday? If I’m not mistaken she was supposed to start that new job on Friday at noon, does that sound right? Do you know that? Jodie knew that, that’s why

Bryan Greenwell: I don’t know.

Investigator: Okay.

Bryan Greenwell: I mean, after it was all done and everything I might have heard Jodie say something she was supposed to start a job today or something like that. It was like “what the fuck man, now what am I supposed to do?” You know, we were both like that, like “what do we do?” Neither one of us knew what to do. She was like “listen, call the cops” cause like you said we went over there with the intentions of helping not hurting somebody, you know? And she never, Jodie never, was near that apartment, what-so-ever, as far as I know of.

Investigator: She told me that she did. She didn’t go into the room that you guys were in which is the back bedroom. But she said she made it into part of it. You said she tried to help them afterwards, so

Bryan Greenwell: I mean, she was like

Investigator: I mean, it doesn’t matter to me. If she came in [inaudible] If she came in it’s fine. That doesn’t get you in trouble that makes you a normal human being that wants to come in and maybe try to help.

Bryan Greenwell: Yeah, I mean, we was both you know saying, she was like saying, well actually I was [inaudible] standing there then turned around and looked at her at the door and I was like “what do I do?” You know what I’m saying? I didn’t know. And I still, to this day, I still can’t tell you exactly, from start to finish, what happened, you know what I’m saying? I just know that I was the one standing in the room when both of them were laying there. Jordie was like “[inaudible] are they still breathing” whatever, you know what I’m saying. I was like “I don’t know?” I mean what, what, I mean, how do you check if somebody is [cross talk]

Investigator: Never been in that situation before.

Bryan Greenwell: And I do know that, I’m not for sure if the landlord called or if Jodie called the landlord or what, I’m not for sure, but I do remember hearing her say the landlord called or the landlord’s wife or something like that saying about you [inaudible] the cops [inaudible] dope from them or something. [inaudible] look like we went in there to rob them or something which wasn’t the case. Nothing was took, nothing like that. And I was like man, I didn’t know what to do. You know what I mean? I still don’t know what to do. I mean, I don’t know

Investigator: What happened with the gun? What did you do with the gun?

Bryan Greenwell: Destroyed it. Melted it down.

Investigator: Melted it down? How did you do that? That takes a lot of heat.

Bryan Greenwell: Yeah, I know. Well, actually the gun didn’t get melted down it got took apart and [inaudible] got melted down. And I was like, “man, I don’t know” and I gave the gun back to the person that owned it. You know what I’m saying? He just let me borrow it. And I can’t tell you his name because I don’t want to get him…

Investigator: So did you destroy it or did you give it back to the guy?

Bryan Greenwell: No, I took it apart Most of the gun went back.

Investigator: I mean, don’t bullshit me. I mean, it’s not, this is not a, that’s not a big issue there. My big thing honestly is, well, yeah I would like to recover it but I just want to make sure you didn’t just toss it somewhere and some kid got to it, that’s more what I’m worried about.

Bryan Greenwell: No No I made sure, yeah, I made sure there wasn’t no kid or no innocent bystander or nothing like that was gonna [inaudible] pick it up.

Investigator: What model was it? I know what caliber it was, at this point, wondering what model it was.

Bryan Greenwell: A Taurus, I think. Or… uh, yeah I think it was a Taurus. Pretty sure it was a Taurus.

Investigator: And you know, I know it was a 40, you know. I’m just curious.

Bryan Greenwell: I mean, to be honest with you I tried blocking it out but…

Investigator: You can’t block something like that out, man. And if you try to it’s eventually going to come back out and it’s going to eat and eat and eat. I mean, I can tell how upset you are

Bryan Greenwell: [inaudible cry] I never meant for none of this to happen. I mean, I don’t know what else to say besides that it was me.

Investigator: Is there anybody else there with you guys?

Bryan Greenwell: [shakes head “no”]

Investigator: Nobody else, okay. Did you have the gun on you when you first went over there? Was this a “I went back over there and got it” or did you have it on you when you first went over there?

Bryan Greenwell: Nah, I had it on me because the situation that fuckin’ everybody was saying that people was out looking for [inaudible] and this and that [inaudible] so I kept it on me. Just for her protection. I wasn’t going to …

Investigator: I understand. Did you, you said you didn’t take anything from the scene at all.

Bryan Greenwell: No.

Investigator: No. Did ya’ll leave anything by any chance? Lose anything?

Bryan Greenwell: I don’t, honestly I don’t know. I mean, I didn’t even try fuckin’ finding the shells that came out of the gun. I was just like, you know, I was dumbfounded, pretty much.

Investigator: And I know you didn’t, this happened in the back bedroom, where they fighting in the back bedroom and you got into the middle of it or did, you know, did you and him get into a fight in the back bedroom? I just want to be clear about it.

Bryan Greenwell: Well they was fighting. Worse than, we was all standing outside in the hallway..

Investigator: And we’re talking about physical fighting, not arguing

Bryan Greenwell: Yeah, we’re talking about physical fighting. And I was like, you know, that’s when Jodie said “you gotta help her”. That’s when I went in there and everything just happened so fast that … you know the rest. I mean, she did try to help them. I didn’t know what to do to help, I mean, I freaked out. I still freak out.

Investigator: Well, I tell you what. This whole thing, this whole situation, I mean it sucks, I mean I was right. Was I not right from the minute I went in here on the way things went down?

Bryan Greenwell: Yeah.

Investigator: And I still believe bad shit happens to good people all the time but this series of events doesn’t paint you out to be a cold calculated “I don’t give a fuck” killer. I mean, shit happened, yeah. There’s nothing we can do about that now. But the way that we presented it as you coming over to help, and correct me if I’m wrong, would you see there’s a big difference between somebody who doesn’t give a fuck and coming over there and shooting people opposed to somebody who is there for a purpose and I can confirm that purpose because there was a domestic fight going on, and you go over there and shit goes bad.

Bryan Greenwell: Yeah.

Investigator: There’s a big difference there.

Bryan Greenwell: Yeah. There’s a bid difference. I mean, I should have went with my gut and just stayed out of it. But I’m not that type of person. If I see somebody needs help, I try to help.

Investigator: I’m going to let you take this picture with you, too. I don’t know if you have any with your kids with you. Because I think, because I think the way we talked here tonight, that getting to see them is going to come a whole lot sooner than if would have been if you told me “I’m not talking to you, get out of the room”. I mean, I could have happened either way, and [inaudible] that’s why I really.. That’s what I was really worried about. That you wouldn’t understand how important of a chance I was trying to give you to get out. You were in a hole. And you’re still in a hole. It’s definitely not as deep as it was with your story out there. And it goes a long way with prosecutors, defense attorneys, and judges and jurors. So we got to look at its a bump in your road. That bump was sitting back at your back side, you hadn’t crossed it yet.  Now we’re across it. Now we are going to figure out from here where to go and you’re going to get your life back on track. Does that sound like a good plan, here?

Bryan Greenwell: That’s not what I wanted.

Investigator: No? Nothing but future in front of you now. Don’t get me wrong. We’re going to take a little bit of it here, but it aint all of it. And what you do with the rest of it, is up to you.

Bryan Greenwell: I’ll never see daylight again.

Investigator: See people I’ve talked to heard you say that and I disagree with that. You have to remember where we are. We’re [inaudible] tend to be more lenient, more liberal here.

Bryan Greenwell: I hope so.

Investigator: And you’ve done yourself big time favors here. You’ve done the best you can for yourself with the situation you’re in. I’m going to go out here and talk to the corrections people and make sure they know about everything. Any questions you have for me right now? You have anything? Alright. Sit tight. We’ll be back here in a few minutes.

Bryan Greenwell and Jodie Cecil Case Summary

Bryan Greenwell (also known as Brian Greenwell) and Jodie Cecil have been found guilty of killing a woman and leaving a man severely injured in Shelby Park neighborhood in Louisville Kentucky. Both defendants were charged with murder, criminal attempted murder, first degree assault, and tampering with physical evidence. Bryan Greenwell and Jodie Cecil were neighbors of Jennifer Cain and Derrell Wilson.

Jennifer

On May 13, 2016, Jennifer Cain was shot several times and died from her injuries. Derrell Wilson survived the attack with life threatening injuries and played a crucial role in the confession of the defendants. While still hospitalized and in poor condition, Derrell Wilson indicated that Bryan Greenwell and Jodie Cecil were involved in the attack. A recording of the interaction with Derrell Wilson and police was recorded and shown to the defendants during interrogation.

After being confronted with the recording of the accusation by the victim, the couple claimed that their neighbors were having a domestic dispute and they went over to assist.  Instead of deescalating the situation as they supposedly planned, Bryan Greenwell ended up shooting the couple. Cecil said that a fight broke out over the gun, and Greenwell said he “blacked out” and doesn’t know what happened.

Greenwell

Trial began on May 21, 2018 and ended on May 25, 2018 with both defendants being found guilty of all charges. Greenwell was a habitual felony offender causing the jury to recommend life in prison. A recommendation of 20 years in prison was made for Cecil. She received 10 additional years for trafficking methamphetamines; a charge Greenwell was already in jail for when he was questioned by police.

Despite being shot in the head, Derrell Wilson is making an astonishing recovery. Initially, Derrell Wilson was unresponsive. Against the odds, months later Derrell Wilson is regaining his motor functions.