Categories
Case Summary

Israel Keyes Extended Summary

Israel Keyes was a serial killer, bank robber, arsonist, and burglar whose crimes spanned many states within the United States and occurred as far back as 1996 until shortly before his arrest on March 13th, 2012. This case is unusual because of the meticulous care taken to cover his tracks, and him choosing victims at random. For example, in one case he flew from Alaska to Chicago, rented a car, and drove 1,000 miles to Vermont before he picked his victims at random and used a “kill kit” he had hidden in the area years prior. His kill kits often contained materials to dispose of bodies, weapons, and money he obtained through bank robberies. The details of many of his murders are still unknown and authorities are still investigating them to this day. Keyes died via suicide while waiting for his trial for kidnapping and murdering Samantha Koenig.

Early Years and Family

Keyes was born on January 7, 1978, to a large Mormon family, in Cove, Utah. The second of 10 children, Keyes, and the other children were homeschooled. When Keyes was between 3 and 4 years old, his family deconverted from Mormonism and began practicing a radical Fundamental Christian faith that Keyes described as a more “militia type of church”. The family attended at least two churches, the Ark, and the Christian Israel Covenant Church, that taught “Christian Identity”, an ideology that is known to be antisemitic and racist.

Between 3 and 5 years old, around the time of the religious conversion, Keyes and his family relocated to Colville, Washington area where they lived an “Amish” lifestyle. They lived in a one-room cabin that Keyes’s father built without running water or electricity. It was here that the Keyes family became friends with Chevie Kehoe’s family, who committed 3 murders in 1996. By his teenage years, Keyes lost his faith in Christianity and temporarily became interested in Satanism.

At some point, Keyes was disowned by his father and not permitted to see his mother for an extended period of time. His relationship was often “hot and cold” with his family for many reasons including his atheism, his choice in women, and joining the military. By the time of Keyes’s father’s death in 2003 or 2004, Keyes and his father were on “ok” terms.  

Work History

On July 9th, 1998, when Keyes was 20 years old, he was processed out of Albany, NY into the United States Army and served until 2001. He served at Fort Lewis and Fort Hood and had a temporary duty assignment in Egypt between January 15th and June 1st, 2000. Keyes was awarded several military decorations and was discharged at the rank of specialist.

Keyes graduating Air Assault School Gin 1999

Former Army buddies described Keyes as being quiet and reserved but noted that he drank excessively on the weekends and liked the horrorcore group Insane Clown Posse. During their tour in Egypt, after being teased about his “Amish” upbringing, his Army friends branded a pentagram on him while they were all drinking.

At some point, Keyes applied to the Police for Port Gamble S’Klallam Tribe to become an officer but was never hired on. In 2002, Keyes was interviewed for a position at the Neah Bay Tribe’s Park and Recreation and was hired. A coworker there said that Keyes was a good worker, had superb carpentry and mechanic skills, and that they eventually became friends through their mutual love for NFL football. They would hang out, drink together, and have barbeques. This coworker also described a time where Keyes branded the anarchist’s “A” on his chest with a coat hanger and a propane torch while they hung out at Keyes house.

After relocating to Anchorage, Alaska, Keyes started a construction business in 2007 called Keyes Construction. Through his company he would work as a contractor, handyman, and construction worker. He kept this business until his arrest.

Relationship and Parenthood

In December of 2000, while Keyes was stationed in Fort Lewis, Keyes met his future wife through a phone chat line. They began dating and within 2 months she found herself pregnant with Keyes child, having already had an older son from a prior relationship. Initially, Keyes did not want them to keep the baby. Soon afterwards though, they made up and decided to keep the baby. Keyes then moved to Neah Bay to support her since she was not working at the time.

By the December of the next year, Keyes became engaged to her. His fiancé noted that Keyes was very tight with money but was not the jealous type, watched normal pornography and had no unusual fetishes, and was never violent. She went so far as to say that she would try to “push his buttons” to get a reaction but could never get one.

By May of 2004, they broke up and he moved into his own house in Neah Bay, though they still continued to see each other casually. Keyes had a few girlfriends before finding his next long-term relationship in 2005, which whom he stayed with until his arrest. In 2007 his girlfriend moved up to Anchorage, Alaska for a job opportunity, and 6 months later Keyes followed her there with his daughter.

Keyes is reported to have had a great relationship with his daughter. A coworker of his said that he was very protective of his daughter. So much so that he said the way that he knew that Keyes trusted him was that Keyes had let him drive his daughter to the airport one time. He would regularly be the one to do his daughter’s hair, often in pigtails or French braids, a skill he acquired from his sisters in childhood.

 Everyone, including exes, friends, and coworkers described him as an excellent worker, good boyfriend or husband, and great father with no signs of aggression or criminal behavior.

Samantha Koenig

On February 1st, 2012, Samantha Koenig was working alone at the Common Grounds Coffee Stand in Anchorage, Alaska near the intersection of Tudor Road and Fairbanks Street.

Samantha Koenig

At approximately 10:00 p.m., Keyes parked his truck across Tudor Road in a Home Depot parking lot and walked over to the coffee stand, threatening Samantha with a gun. He then proceeded to climb through the window, robbed the coffee stand, and led Samantha out of the small building after binding her hands with zip ties. She managed to escape his grasp while on Tudor Road, where Keyes had to chase and tackle her and held the gun to her side to get her to his vehicle.

At 10:33 p.m. Samantha’s boyfriend arrived at the coffee stand to pick her up after work, but the Common Ground Coffee Stand seemed to be closed without any sign of Samantha. The lights were off, and the stand appeared to be locked up for the night. Her boyfriend tried to text and call her without a response.

Common Grounds Coffee Stand

While out of state, Samantha’s boss checked his internet-based security system only to find that Samantha had been abducted. Security system footage showed Samantha putting her hands up as a sign of submission, giving Keyes the money out of her register, then Keyes climbing through the window and leading her away at gunpoint. Authorities were then alerted.

At 11:24 p.m., Samantha’s boyfriend got a text that said “F U asshole I know what u did I am going to spend a couple of days with friends need time to think plan actig weird let my dad know”. Based on the way the text was written, spelling errors, and phrases used, Samantha’s boyfriend did not think she was responsible for the text he received from her phone. At 11:53 p.m. he got another text that said only “F U”. He tried texting and calling more but did not get a response.

About 3 hours later at 3:00 a.m. on February 2, 2012, Samantha’s boyfriend witnessed Keyes outside of his house rummaging through his and Samantha’s shared vehicle with a mask on. He did not think the two incidents were related and had not yet known that Samantha had been kidnapped. Stolen from the vehicle was Samantha’s driver’s license and his Credit Union One debit card that went to a shared account with Samantha. Approximately 30 minutes later, Keyes attempted to withdraw money from a local ATM wearing a black hoodie, sunglasses, and black gloves.

Keyes’s house in Alaska, with shed where murder occurred

Keyes drove around with Samantha in his truck for a couple of hours, only stopping at a local Anchorage park to use cable ties to secure Samantha to a bench in his truck. When he deemed it late enough that he would not be detected by his girlfriend or neighbors, he brought Samantha to a shed in front of his garage at his house that he had set up two days before anticipating abducting someone. He had put down a tarp, a foam mat, a sleeping bag, two space heaters, and a radio.

Once Keyes got Samantha into the shed, Keyes bound her with zip ties and rope, and proceeding to sexually assault her over a few hours. After the sexual assault, Keyes murdered Samantha then wrapped her in a tarp and placed her inside of a cabinet that was inside of the shed.

Immediately after Samantha’s murder, Keyes went inside, took a shower, got his daughter ready for their flight from Alaska to Huston Texas, and called a cab to the airport. Keyes then purchased a rental vehicle in Texas, which he put 2847 miles on, and drove to Lafayette, Louisiana. At the same time as he was arriving at Lafayette, Louisiana, Anchorage Police Department was requesting assistance from the FBI in identifying Samantha’s kidnapper.

In Louisiana, Keyes and his daughter went to a “kid’s Mardi Gras” before going on a 5-day cruise on the 6th of February. This Carnival Cruise from New Orleans was not unexpected, with his daughter’s mother being aware of it for months ahead of time. The night before, Keyes’s daughter’s mother called and noted that nothing seemed out of the ordinary. Her daughter just told her that they were packing for their trip. Despite how normal everything seemed, Keyes would abduct and murder Samantha a couple hours later. After returning from the cruise, Keyes and his daughter spent time with family in Texas.

On February 13th, Keyes left his family’s home in Texas before the sun rose, leaving a note on the bed saying that he had to fix his windshield and find a place to hide his guns. His family texted him from the shared family phone and said that they could bring his guns to someone’s house for him, but he did not respond. The next time the family was able to get ahold of him was at nighttime when he said that he was “stuck in the middle of nowhere”. The family tried to text him several times offering to pick him up but didn’t hear anything from him again until the following evening when he asked to be picked up. Despite going to where he said, they could not find him, and his family ended up sleeping in their van in the parking lot of a mall in Cleburne waiting for him. The following morning, on the 15th of February, he called and said he was on the other side of the mall. When they found him he said he had run out of gas, had gotten his rental vehicle stuck in the mud, his cards had been frozen, and he had not eaten or slept in two days.

National Bank of Texas Robbery, February 16th, 2012

On the 16th after getting back to his family’s residence he rescheduled his and his daughter’s flight to Alaska since he caused them to miss it. After getting new tickets for February 18th, Keyes left his family’s house and did not return for several hours. This was later determined to be because he was robbing the National Bank of Texas in Azle, as well as taking jewelry from a home before lighting it on fire, burning the 3500 square foot home to the ground. That evening, he met with members of his family’s church. The following day he was not present at his family’s home, and then the next day on the 18th he flew back to Alaska with his daughter.

When Keyes returned to Alaska, Samantha’s father had already been heavily fundraising for his daughter’s return or any information regarding her disappearance on Facebook. He explicitly told the public that he would give all of the raised money, no questions asked, to the kidnapper for Samantha’s safe return. One of his Facebook posts stated “…WHOEVER HAS MY DAUGHTER JUST RING HER ANYWHERE, TO A HOSPITAL, HOMES, SEND HER IN A CAB HOME ANONYMOUSLY, AND I WILL LEAVE ALL THE MONEY WE HAVE COLLECTED IN A CERTAIN PLACE OF YOUR CHOOSING WITHIN MINUTES OF YOUR INSTRUCTIONS, JUST RETURN HER TO ME.”

Photo on the back of ransom note depicting Samantha’s body posed to seem alive

Keyes removed Samantha’s body from the cabinet and used a hair blow dryer to thaw her body. He posed her body to make it appear as though she was still alive, which included sewing her eyes open with fishing line. He styled her hair and used her makeup that was in her purse to make it appear as if she was not already deceased. He then took a photograph of her with a 4-day old copy of the Anchorage Daily News newspaper. After printing out the photo with a color ink jet printer, he used a type writer to write a ransom note on the back. After this was completed, Keyes placed plastic on the floor and portions of the walls before dismembering Samantha’s body. He then spent several days disposing her body in Matanuska Lake.

After disposing of her body, Keyes removed the cabinets and portions of the flooring and insulation to get rid of blood evidence before replacing the floor. He also burned Samantha’s clothing and purse, a bloody sleeping bag from the assault, and wood from inside of the shed.

Text Keyes sent from Samantha’s Phone

On February 23, 2012, Keyes again texted Samantha’s boyfriend from Samantha’s phone and gave him instructions on how to find the ransom note. Samantha’s boyfriend then called Samantha’s father who called the police. The ransom note and picture was found at Conner’s Bog Park in Anchorage under a missing dog flyer for a dog named “Albert” as the text message said. The ransom demanded $30,000 and did not threaten any consequence if the ransom was not met. Instead, it said that in exchange for the ransom, the boyfriend would receive a text that gave the location of a packet of information that would give law enforcement all of the information they needed to know to find Samantha.  The note also included her boyfriend’s debit card number. The note read in part that “I may not use the card much in AK due to small pop but as I will be leaving soon, I will be using it all over” and “she almost got away twice, once on Tudor and once in the desert. Must be losing my touch”.

On February 29, 2012, Samantha’s father deposited $5,000 into the account. At 10:13 p.m. Keyes sat in his girlfriend’s 2007 Nissan Xterra for several minutes outside of an ATM before a failed attempt at withdrawing the ransom money wearing facemask, glasses, and dark clothes. At 11:56 p.m., he successfully withdrew $500 at another ATM in Anchorage.

Security photo of Keyes at ATM in Shephard, Texas

About a week later, Keyes flew his daughter and himself to Las Vegas, Nevada before renting a white Ford Focus at the airport and driving south to go to his sister’s wedding in Wells, Texas. On his drive, he used Samantha’s boyfriend’s debit card in Willcox, Arizona, Lordburg, New Mexico, Humble, Texas, and Shephard, Texas.

On March 8th, 2012, Keyes and his daughter arrived at his mother’s house at 10 p.m. in preparation for the wedding. He explained that he drove from Los Vegas to Texas because the plane ticket to Los Vegas was the cheapest he could find. Keyes also told his family that his girlfriend had to work and that’s why she would not be attending the wedding. On March 13th, Keyes was apprehended by authorities in Texas.

Other Crimes and Murders

Keyes has admitted to other crimes, including having murdered 8 other victims. His death has complicated solving many of the crimes, but his DNA is on file.

Keyes is suspected to have burglarized upwards of 30 homes across the United States including one confirmed in Texas that he lit on fire. On top of the bank robbery in Texas the same day as the Texas burglary, Keyes has also been confirmed to be the perpetrator of a bank robbery in Tupper Lake, New York in April 2009. Other bank robberies are possible. It is also believed by authorities that there are several more “kill kits” hidden around the country.

“Kill kit” found by authorities in New York that included a .22 caliber Ruger weapon, empty magazines, ammunition, and a silencer, among other things

Keyes’s first known violent crime is thought to have occurred between June 1st and September 1st of 1997 where he abducted and raped an unknown female near Maupin, Oregon. Keyes also admitted to murdering a person in upstate New York in April 2009. Authorities find his admission credible, noting that Keyes has ties to New York and owns 10 acres and a run-down cabin in Constable, NY, and had been confirmed to have committed a bank robbery around the same time.  It is also believed that he murdered a couple and an unrelated victim in two separate incidents in Washington State.

The FBI has asked for the help of the public in solving cases relating to Keyes. They have published his known movements that can be found here. It may prove useful to look at his travel history to determine where and when he likely committed a serious crime. For example, between February 6th and February 13th, 2004, Keyes rented a silver Volkswagen Jetta with the license plate 267WVW from Enterprise in Salt Lake City, Utah, and then drove 522 miles despite not having permission to leave the state from the rental company. Again 6 months later between October 6th and October 15th, 2004, Keyes took a Southwest Airlines flight to Manchester New Hampshire from Washington, then rented a Kia Amani (license plate 1230139) and drove 1,745 miles, this time getting permission to cross states lines first. Given his history with traveling far distances to commit his crimes, it is likely that he committed a serious crime during these time periods.

Murder of Bill and Lorraine Currier

On June 2nd, 2011, Keyes flew from Anchorage, Alaska to Chicago, Illinois through Alaska Airlines, then rented a vehicle in Des Plaines, Illinois which he drove all the way to Essex, Vermont. Here, Keyes retrieved a “murder kit” he had hidden two years prior and then looked for an ideal place to target. Some items in the cache included premade ligatures, a propane camp stove, several bottles of water, duct tape, and latex gloves.

Bill and Lorraine Currier

Bill and Lorraine Currier were a middle-aged married couple who lived in Burlington, Vermont. On June 8th, 2011, Keyes broke into the Currier’s house and bound them before bringing them to an abandoned farmhouse that he scoped out the day before.

Interior door from the garage of the Currier’s home

He brought Bill to the basement and shot him in the head when he yelled out “where is my wife?” before he sexually assaulted and strangled Lorraine in an upstairs bedroom. Their bodies were never located, though the place he indicated the bodies would be had been demolished. After the murders, he relocated his kill kit to Parishville, New York where authorities retrieved it after he confessed to where that particular kill kit was. Several more are thought to still exist.

After returning the rental vehicle, Keyes took a Continental Airlines flight from Chicago, Illinois to San Francisco, California before flying back to Anchorage, Alaska a few days later.

Arrest, Imprisonment, and Death

Israel Keyes’s Arrest

On March 13th, 2012, Texas Highway Patrol located a vehicle matching the description of his rental vehicle at a Quality Inn & Suites parking lot in Lufkin Texas. Since it was the only hotel near the last place he had tried to use Samantha’s boyfriend’s debit card, authorities had already asked for the house list from the hotel’s front desk. Texas ranger Steven Rayburn informed the Texas Department of Public Safety of his find before doing a visual inspection and finding that there was a barcode sticker on the vehicle typical of rental vehicles. He also noticed pink clothing that he assumed was a woman’s belongings. He then maintained surveillance of the vehicle. Within 15 minutes, Keyes exited room number 215, and put items in the rental’s trunk. Police determined that room 215 was registered to an “Elijah Keyes”, an alias Keyes was using. Shortly after, Texas ranger Rayburn pulled Keyes over under the suspicion of the Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas fraudulent ATM withdraws, along with speeding.

Keyes soon became agitated and nervous, sweating profusely. Keyes then stated that if he was going to be kept much longer he wanted to call his brother who had his daughter in another vehicle. Texas ranger Rayburn suggested that Keyes do that since he would not be able to leave anytime soon. On Keyes, authorities found Samantha’s boyfriend’s debit card.

Pictures found under Keyes’s body

Four days later Keyes admitted to using the card but claimed that an unknown person had left a bag which contained Samantha’s cellphone and her boyfriend’s debit card in the bed of his truck while it was parked in his driveway. Obviously, this was not true. Soon after, he began actually admitting his crimes. Since much of what he has told authorities has been confirmed, his confessions are deemed credible. Despite this, Keyes was very careful about what he said so that he could use his divulging of information to his benefit. He wanted the death penalty and to not be tried for other crimes besides Samantha’s, as well as keeping the information of the cases away from the media to protect his daughter. Before he could confess to everything, Keyes committed suicide just two days after telling investigators that he was becoming impatient with the process and that he was displeased about information being leaked to the media directly after he confessed it to them. Under his body authorities found a suicide letter than gave no new clues and 12 pictures painted in Keyes’s blood, thought to represent his 11 victims and himself.

Categories
Police Interrogations Uncategorized

Paul Bernardo Police Interrogation Transcript

Paul Bernardo is a serial killer and serial rapist (the Scarborough Rapist) in Canada, active between 1987 and 1992. Prior to marrying is ex-wife, he had only committed rapes. His wife, Karla Homolka, participated in the murders and helped obtain the girls that would be killed. In the case of Elizabeth Bain’s murder, the defendant, Robert Baltovich’s attorney contended that Bernardo was the actual perpetrator. The following is the police interview about this.

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9p877BdxBI&w=560&h=315]

Paul Bernardo Police Interview Transcript

Detective Brad Hoover: My name is, uh, Detective Brad Hoover. Uh, My patch number 6188. I’m with the Toronto Police Sex Crime Unit. Uh, the time now is 2:05 p.m. and we’re presently at the Kingston Penitentiary in Kingston Ontario, uh, in a board room as thick as the main building, you would call it. Um, present in the room here, if I could just have the two of you identify yourself for the purposes of the video tape that’s being made. Seated to my left, off camera, um, now sitting at the table is your counsel? Just, could you please identify yourself?

Counsel Anthony Bryant: Yes, sir. It’s Anthony Bryant.

Detective Brad Hoover: And, uh, straight across the table from me, if you could identify yourself please?

Detective Coulis: [inaudible] Coulis C-O-U-L-I-S Badge number 64834 police service.

Detective Brad Hoover: And seated to my right, if you could just identify yourself please?

Paul Bernardo: Paul Jason Teale AKA Paul Bernardo.

Detective Brad Hoover: And again, my name is Brad Hoover and today is June the 7th of 2007. Mr. Teale, the reason we’re here today is, uh, to speak to you in regards to a couple of incid… a couple of matters. First of all, before we start, I just want you to, um, make sure you are aware that what we say is being videotaped here.

Paul Bernardo: Yeah, I’m aware.

Detective Brad Hoover: I’m just going to start this audio tape. I forgot to do that before. [bang and beep] Uh, just started this audio tape here. We started the interview at 2:05 p.m. My name is, uh, Detective Brad Hoover. Paul, um, you’re not, presently being given a cation or anything. I want you to understand that what you’re saying to us today is voluntary. That means that if you don’t want to talk to us, you don’t have to. Uh, your counsel is present and uh, if you need to speak to him you certainly can but I just want to make sure that you understand that what you say here is voluntary and uh, that we’re interviewing you as a potential witness. Do you understand that?

Paul Bernardo:  Yeah.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay. Uh, just a little bit of background about the first time we met back last year in April 2006. Um, that was in regards to a letter that you had sent to general attorney’s office that filtered down to my office in regards to some admissions you had made about some sexual assaults you had committed. I am here to tell you that I have concluded that investigation and that um, there have been two offences that I have been able to identify and uh, with the information that you provided to me at that time was able to conclude those matters as having been committed by yourself. So, for that I thank you for that information, and…

Paul Bernardo: Um, sorry. You’ve identified [cross talk]

Detective Brad Hoover: Identified the offence. No, no, no, I identified the office you were talking about and uh, based on that information I was able to conclude those cases that, that actually provided enough information that I was satisfied that you were the person the committed those offenses.

Paul Bernardo: Okay. Now what about….

Detective Brad Hoover: That make sense?

Paul Bernardo: And that makes sense. What about ones that you thought that I came forward with and you thought I didn’t do? Was it any of those?

Detective Brad Hoover: There was none that I thought that you didn’t do. There was some that I didn’t have enough information to either identify the offence because, um, you were unable to provide enough details at that time or they may not have ever been reported to the police. Cause you said, when we spoke, some of them were, uh, wouldn’t call them minor offence but, uh…

Paul Bernardo: No, I understand.

Detective Brad Hoover: …offences that may not have been reported the police.

Paul Bernardo: Okay um, problem. Uh, I turned on the TV, waited for Peer Regional to come by. September rolls around, they say, make a public announcement, it’s written on my filed here that uh, that I lied to police and I did not commit the crimes that I said I committed and [inaudible] on Peel Regional. Big problem.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay. I’ve spoken to Peel Region…

Paul Bernardo: Yeah.

Detective Brad Hoover: …and they have told me that, uh, they don’t have enough information at this point to identify anything that you’ve, um, the letter that was sent to the police, to through the police, wasn’t specific enough to identify any offences. Now, that’s something we can talk about sort of following this interview. And if you want to get into that, we can talk about that.

Paul Bernardo:  Well, I’ve been sitting on this for years [inaudible]. It’s written in my file and it makes me seem like a loony. Just this crazy, you guys love doing that, I’m just this crazy psychopathic liar. Why was that statement an issue? Why didn’t they come in and talk to me if they didn’t have enough information? We were waiting…On that tape, you can play that tape back when I asked you guys if Peel Regional was going to come in. I sat there month after month after month, no one came. I turned on the TV in September, Peel Regional declared Paul Bernardo was, you know, this crazy liar to police. What, what, what’s is the fundamental problem here?

Detective Brad Hover: Well…

Paul Bernardo:  No, I mean, I guess that’s just the Canadian way and uh, and, and no one comes in and now you guys are saying you did not have enough information.

Detective Brad Hover: Well, I can’t answer for them specifically as to what they did or didn’t do. Um, I can tell you that, because they are a separate police department I don’t have control over what investigation that they did do. I can tell you I have spoken with the investigator in Peel Region and they have told me that at this point they do not have enough information to move forward. They haven’t been able to identify any offence that we specifically talked about.

Paul Bernardo:  That statement you’re giving to me is much different than the public statement that they said which is I’m a liar.

Detective Brad Hover: Okay. Well, I don’t, I don’t…

Paul Bernardo:  It’s night and day and they didn’t come in. If they didn’t have enough information, why don’t you come in and get the information? I mean, either I’m lying or I’m not lying, and this goes to the [inaudible] of this argument. Either I’m a liar to you and I’m going to lie to you about everything like I did to Peel Regional according to their story or I’m not. You know, I, I, I just, I just, I’m not going to sit here and come voluntarily, and people come, and you guys ban me from the press. You roll your stories over and you constantly say I’m a liar, I’m a liar. I made mistakes 17 years ago. 17, okay, fine, I did but, but now we’re talking about today and you’re not going to roll forward that I’m some psychopathic liar sitting in jail claiming other people’s responsibilities for other crimes. This is a total cross examination point. You want to start this thing? [inaudible] grab ahold of it. Say “well, you lied about other crimes, you know, he’s a crazy liar.” Why didn’t you guys resolve this?

Detective Brad Hover: And again, I can not answer for what Peel Region did or didn’t do. Um…

Detective Coulis: Jurisdictionally we are kind of bound as to what takes place [crosstalk]

Paul Bernardo:  Well, but still, the good guys and the bad guys. You know what I mean? You’re on the same team.

Detective Coulis: Yes, we are but as far as us inv, investigating matters outside of the actual Toronto Proper, um, that’s why Peel Regional has their police service and like Detective Hoover said, we can’t answer as to what they did with their investigations or the issues they were looking at or transpired out in their area and we really can’t speak to that. Now, whether that’s something you wish to have your counsel down the line then that’s sometime else…

Paul Bernardo: Yeah, that’s true.

Detective Coulis: But unfortunately, there’s, we, there wasn’t a lot Detective Hoover and I could do in regards to those things.

Paul Bernardo: Well, [inaudible] they should subpoena the guys from Peel Regional. They could bring in all the facts of where I lied, then, if I’m a liar. That’s what I say to do because either I’m a liar or I’m not a liar and I’m not a liar. But you guys are trying to paint me as one. The public, they, they turn on the TV in September of last year and I’m this crazy liar. Uh, that’s what the TV reported. Not only did they report it there, they wrote it on my file. I’ve got it [inaudible] myself. Paul Bernardo uh, Peel Regional says that Paul Bernardo lied about crimes he didn’t commit, said he did.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay, um…

Paul Bernardo:  I mean, this, this, that’s just awful. I mean, come on.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay.

Paul Bernardo:  Enough manipulation. You know what I mean? Either I told the truth or otherwise the whole purpose of the interview is stupid because if I’m this crazy liar I would just be sitting here lying to you about everything, right? Right? I mean, why wouldn’t I? I’m just this crazy liar.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay. And again, I don’t, I don’t know exactly what was said by Peel Regional and I’m not here to answer to what they said. Either [crosstalk]

Paul Bernardo:  You know, it’s, it’s one thing, you know, I’m a human being and, and to say that I’m a dangerous offender, raping and killing and all this stuff, it’s fine. I mean, free publicity deal, get that, tough on crime, get that bad guy. But when it gets to a certain point [inaudible] it just, it affects me totally. You know what I mean? I made mistakes. I made mistakes a long time ago. But don’t say that today about me because then we’re lying, and we have a big problem here because I’m looking at you and you’re the bad guys because I’m not doing anything wrong. I’m telling the truth and you guys are walking around issuing statements that I lied here, I lied there. No?

Detective Coulis: Well, those weren’t statements issued by Detective Hoover and myself or [crosstalk]

Paul Bernardo:  Yeah, I know but it’s the attorney general that sent you guys down here. He’s fighting this case. He’s taking this [inaudible] back, right? So, it’s, it’s, really all the, the same organization isn’t it? Attorney general I saw on TV talking about it.

Detective Coulis: But, but this is a separate matter from what those issues…

Paul Bernardo: But it’s still the General Attorney’s office. [laughs]

Detective Coulis: Yeah, it, it, may very well be but um, like I said I can’t speak to anything that Peel Regional does. Say for instance they release to the media because they have….

Paul Bernardo:  You know, it’s the same thing. If I’m a liar, take the facts that they have, they come down, they talk to me, any cross examine, any defense lawyer, call them up and show me where I’m lying because you’re not going to find it. Maybe there’s a minor mistake here or there because I think there’s one thing about some, tree, driveway, where the trees were, you know your memory gets a little fuzzy over time but to say that is just ridiculous. Its like you guys didn’t go, uh, you guys polygraph Karla yet? Ask her about it? Nobody from the General Attorney’s office go down there? Nobody cared? Again, it’s the same, I know, but it’s the same problem because you guys are making me out to be a huge liar and, and this is a huge liar and, and…

Detective Brad Hoover: Well, I don’t, I don’t have any doubt as to what you told us before. Ah, the facts that I can verify I believe were true and from what you’ve told me and you haven’t told me any lies yet so I don’t have any personal reason to believe you’re lying to me.

Paul Bernardo:  Exactly.

Detective Brad Hoover: So, again…

Paul Bernardo:  Exactly but this is a different story than what I have on my file and….

Detective Brad Hoover: And I don’t know what is in your file because I’m not privy to that information or what’s there or what’s not there. I’m just telling you from my perspective and from an investigator perspective, and to what I’ve looked into and to what admissions you made in April last year, to me, you know, I’m satisfied. I’ve done what I can do as far as the investigation. If Peel, if you would like to provide me with more information about the specific occurrences that occurred in Peel Region, then we can talk about that after the, uh, focus of what we are here for today.

Paul Bernardo:  But it is, it is part of the focus.

Detective Brad Hoover: It is and it isn’t. I mean, obviously directly we are here today to deal with the Baltovich matter that you’re aware of.

Paul Bernardo:  But dealing with me comes down to credibility.

Detective Brad Hoover: Comes down to credibility and absolutely it does and that’s, um, that’s what we’re here to talk about today. So, let’s, let’s deal with that and then we will deal with the other stuff afterwards. Is that okay?

Paul Bernardo:  Well, yeah. I was just making my point on it because it’s got to be addressed sometime.

Detective Brad Hoover: Absolutely. It will be.

Paul Bernardo:  Well, it should have been dealt with a year and a bit ago. So.

Detective Brad Hoover: Yeah.

Paul Bernardo:  Well, not quite a year, actually.

Detective Brad Hoover: A little over a year ago. Um, I have a few, some questions that were, um, that were given to me to ask you in relation to the, um, Baltovich matter, Robert Baltovich matter. Um, before we do that, I just want to say you obviously understand the importance of telling the truth and, and, um, the potential consequences of someone who lies to the police, um, and not telling the truth?

Paul Bernardo:  I think we’ve discovered that. Actually, I was referring you guys tell the truth.

Detective Brad Hoover: Right.

Paul Bernardo: [laughs]

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay, so we’re aware of that.  And, um, in this matter I believe we’ve had some conversations with your counsel and, in regards to it and um, there has been some discussion about polygraph testing in this matter. Is that true or not true or do you recall that?

Paul Bernardo:  Wha… [laughs] you’re opening up cans of worms everywhere.

Detective Brad Hoover: No, I’m just asking you a specific question.

Paul Bernardo:  You know that goes back to you guys polygraph [inaudible]. You guys didn’t polygraph Karla and haven’t in the two years since. Have you guys gone down there and asked her? Have you settled that matter with it? Because you can say that I lied or whatever about a polygraph, but have you asked her? Because if, it comes down to a lot of that issue. I mean, have you asked her? General attorney [cross talk]

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay, let me tell you a little bit. My involvement with this overall investigation of the Baltovich is very limited. Uh, the only knowledge that I have, as to what investigation has been done or hasn’t been done is related to the conversations I’ve had with this interview here today.

Paul Bernardo:  Okay.

Detective Brad Hoover: Um, who or what other witnesses there are I don’t know.

Paul Bernardo:  An answer your question, an answer your question, I don’t want to go off on tangents, but all these issues are relevant. I know you don’t think they are, but they are. An answer to your question is we had some discussion on it but when [inaudible] and Peel PD came down before Karla was released I told them I would be willing to take a polygraph on anything and everything, would you in turn, are you going to go down before you release Karla, just to ask her. She’s not going to take it she’s going to fail on all these issues. [inaudible] blah blah blah.

Detective Brad Hoover: Right.

Paul Bernardo:  Did [inaudible] happen in July? Was the girl in January actually to kidnapped [inaudible]. Picked up somebody in the bar that she tried to [inaudible] roll over and all, all these other issues, all relevant. All relevant and, and, so then I addressed it to you guys when you came back again, uh, last year. I said “yeah, I’ll take a polygraph on anything because I’m not telling a lie on a thing”. Are you, have you, again I ask the question, have you guys gone down there? I mean, I know Karla’s free now. I’m not in the business of disciplinary [inaudible] it’s not my thing but my point was did you ask her the question just so we get the story straight. I mean, if she refuses, well, there’s, there’s a reason why she’s refusing. And again, you guys couldn’t provide an answer. And now almost a year later, and again you don’t provide an answer. So, I mean, you know, I don’t know what you’re asking me. You asking me to take a polygraph when you’re not willing to ask her?

Detective Brad Hoover: Well, again this, this, my part in this investigation is, is limited to what we’re seeing here today so, so the details of all of what other witnesses may or may not have been [inaudible] or done, I don’t know. And as a potential witness I’m not allowed to tell you what I’ve…

Paul Bernardo:  Well, yeah.

Detective Brad Hoover: …done. So, that, I have to sort of be careful about the way that’s answered or even what you think my answer might be.

Paul Bernardo:  Yeah, no, I just, just wanted for the record that I gave you good information in which you guys could’ve, independent of me, could have verified my story or not.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay.

Paul Bernardo: And whether you guys do or do not is not my business. Like I said I’m not a prosecutor.

Detective Brad Hoover: Right.

Paul Bernardo: I’m not here to point my finger at anyone but I showed you guys where to go so if you guys don’t do that it’s your business. But, you know, to me, it’s like, if you didn’t, why didn’t you if you guys want the truth about things?

Detective Brad Hoover: Right, so, I understand that. And I understand what you’re saying so, um, what we’re here to talk about today, uh, obviously you know that this statement uh, may be used in court or may be [inaudible] to court as a voluntary statement.

Paul Bernardo: Yeah.

Detective Brad Hoover: A polygraph obviously is not uh, something that is court admissible. I’m not sure if you’re aware of that or not.

Paul Bernardo:  Yeah, I am.

Detective Brad Hoover: It’s not used in court. Okay, um, so the crux of what we’re here to talk about is it’s been suggested that, um, in the continuing investigation of Elizabeth Bain, and the charge of murder against Robert Baltovich, that you are the alternative suspect or an alternative suspect. Are you aware of that?

Paul Bernardo:  Yeah, yeah.

Detective Brad Hoover: Um, did you kill Elizabeth Bain on June 19 of 1990?

Paul Bernardo:  Well, that’s a loaded question. I mean, are we going to go back and, and, and go through the time sequence of what happened in my life? I mean, I could just give a yes or no answer, but you know, there’s a lot of issues about that.

Detective Brad Hover: Right.

Paul Bernardo:  You know Karla my [inaudible] who did what, where, when. This is why I said did you guys go down there to get a polygraph to see if she’s telling the truth about it. Why didn’t they do it in the first place? I mean, polygraphed everyone in the Camaro, why not make a deal with someone and not give them a polygraph. It’s incomprehensible to me. Now I’m sitting, my file says her version and it’s a lie. You know? You know what I mean?

Detective Brad Hoover: Yeah.

Paul Bernardo:  I, I, you know, I’m not making frivolous points. I mean, now you’re asking me, after you said, Peel Regional said I’m lying about this and then you’re saying I’m lying about my profile, you’re saying I’m lying about if I’m better or not. Now you’re saying, “hey did you kill this person?” Well you’re saying I’m lying here, here, here. I could say “no I didn’t” but I mean, you already said I lied here with Peel, you’re saying…

Detective Brad Hoover: No, I’m not saying, I’m not saying anything about who’s lying. I’m simply…

Paul Bernardo:  And I’ve given you directions to go find the truth. I’ve always done that.

Detective Brad Hoover: Right and I’ve, I’ve asked, again I’ve told you that I’ve done investigations on information that you’ve told me, and as a result of that information I’ve been able to verify. In my mind you’ve told me the truth. So, if Peel Regional is lying about you or someone else is lying about you, I have no control over that or know…

Paul Bernardo:  That goes right back to credibility.

Detective Brad Hoover: Well, absolutely it does and that’s, I guess, the, the easy way [inaudible] if we can go through, we answer the questions and yes, I hope to be able to go through some time line to identify where you were, what you were doing specifically in relation to this case.

Paul Bernardo:  Anyways, I know I’m giving you guys a hard time about some things, but I mean, really, I’m a human being and when you guys do all these things, I got to…anyways, I’ll try to [inaudible]. Anyways the answer to that is no but, the 800lb gorilla in the room, that’s a 25 to life sentence. You know? It really comes down to credibility.

Detective Brad Hoover: Right.

Paul Bernardo:  And not only credibility, timeline and between what Karla and my rules were respectively. The answer to that is no.

Detective Brad Hoover: Um, did you have anything to do with her disappearance?

Paul Bernardo:  No.

Detective Brad Hoover: Did you know Elizabeth Bain?

Paul Bernardo:  Not that I know of.

Detective Brad Hoover: Had you ever met her?

Paul Bernardo:  I could answer that with a “I don’t remember” because if I did or if I didn’t, I don’t remember. I know an ex-girlfriend tried to say but like I said, I don’t remember.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay. Um, you are obviously aware of her disappearance…

Paul Bernardo:  Yeah, sort of.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay, do you recall when you became aware of this?

Paul Bernardo: [sighs] Best that I can best recollect is after September. Didn’t follow the news much.

Detective Brad Hoover: Um, the date, obviously, June the 19th , 1990 was [crosstalk]

Paul Bernardo:  But, but, but you know, other, other than that, I don’t remember. You know what I mean? I heard about it before, but I can’t recall…

Detective Brad Hoover: You can’t recall…

Paul Bernardo:  …if I did or not, but I remember in jail I had news papers after that fact. I saw something on that sort.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay, um, we’ll, we’ll sort of get into that in a little bit when we, uh, hope to go through a bit of a timeline with you as to some things that may jog your memory as to…

Paul Bernardo:  Now we’re talking.

Detective Brad Hoover: …um, back in that time. I mean, if you asked me what I was doing three weeks ago on Tuesday I probably couldn’t tell you unless you put some reference to it. So, we’ll hopefully be able to do that. Um, and again, obviously June the 19th, 1990, do you know what you were doing that day?

Paul Bernardo: [laughs] No, I have no idea.

Detective Brad Hoover: Um, I, I have a document here in front of me that uh, references some points in time around this June of 1990 from police investigation. This is what um, indicates you may have been involved with or may have, certain things you may have done that… I’d like to go over a couple of them that um, sort of made, sort of assist you in remembering what you were doing back in 1990. Um, the first part of June, 1990, actually June the 1st, Karla had uh doctors appointment um, where she was complaining of pains in her right side. Um, perhaps she had something to do with a rabies shot. Does that ring any bells?

Paul Bernardo: Not at all.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay. Um. In the first part of June you had a Nissan 40SX. Is that correct?

Paul Bernardo:  Yeah.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay. You were making several trips into the United States. Uh, June 2nd, June 3rd, June 10th, June 16th . I think at that point you were involved with cigarette smuggling and things like that. From what I recall, someone said no.

Paul Bernardo:  That would be no. That wasn’t until after we moved out so.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay. Um, making a couple of trips to the States within a couple days, that, that’s something [crosstalk]

Paul Bernardo:  When we started the relationship, we were going over all the time so. Just for personal reasons though.

Detective Brad Hoover: Um, on June the 16th you shopped at Ruff Hewn, is that, in the Niagara Falls United States, is, that store sound familiar to you?

Paul Bernardo:  Yes, it sounds familiar. I have no idea about those are the dates but…

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay.

Paul Bernardo: If you got a receipt for it…

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay, I think there must be a receipt there. And again, I don’t have all of the details. I’m just doing by what’s on this sheet of paper. Um, a black expandable binder, is that…

Paul Bernardo:  I think. I can’t recall one hundred percent but…

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay. That would have been around the same time. That was about a week prior to, if you purchased one of those, um, Elizabeth Bain going missing.

Paul Bernardo:  I have no idea when I purchased it. I just…

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay.

Paul Bernardo:  …recall I had something like that. Like an according binder type thing.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay, um, June, June the 16th, again that would be the same day, the same [inaudible] you attended a movie, um, Back to the Future 3. Do you recall when that movie came out?

Paul Bernardo: [laugh] No.

Detective Brad Hoover: Um, there’s a receipt for a cell phone purchased at Radio Shack at the Town and Country Mall at 6366 Young Street. Remember buying a cellphone?

Paul Bernardo: Oh, you know, I bought a cellphone around that time because when I declared bankruptcy [inaudible], I bought the, the, Radio Shack one. I don’t know the dates…

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay, that would have been the day after Elizabeth Bain went missing. Uh, do you remember anything you were involved with around that time? You said you were going bankrupt so what type of activity were you involved in on a day to day basis?

Paul Bernardo: The only reason I remember bankruptcy is that happened uh, uh, around, a couple days before the, the, sexual assault type thing [inaudible]. If I recollect collectly, correctly, it was two days before I, I, filed for that. But I couldn’t even tell you that date, I just know it was sometime in… What, what date did you say that was? June the…

Detective Brad Hoover: June the, uh, 16th of 1990.

Paul Bernardo:  When was that sexual assault, uh the one with the [inaudible]. Was it 24th? 24th? What date do you guys have for that?

Detective Brad Hover: Um, there was one, there was a sexual assault in May of 1990.

Paul Bernardo:  Is that the [inaudible] one in [inaudible]?

Detective Brad Hoover: I think that it is but it doesn’t say that specifically here but shortly after that, um…

Paul Bernardo:  My timeline’s off.

Detective Brad Hoover: Um, the end of June of 1990 that was the original, when someone identified you actually as the Scarborough rapist.

Paul Bernardo:  What? The end of…?

Detective Brad Hoover: That was the end of June 1990. Um, Laurie Homolka’s 19th birthday was June the 22nd of 1990. Do you recall her going to her birthday?

Paul Bernardo:  No, I know, I know it was around that time, but I don’t specifically recall that.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay. The only reason [inaudible] people drinking [inaudible] perhaps. [inaudible]

Paul Bernardo: [shakes head “no”]

Detective Brad Hover: [inaudible]

Paul Bernardo: [inaudible] so.

Detective Brad Hoover: Um. June the 21st, so just, just a day after you bought the cell phone, um, you may have purchased…

Paul Bernardo: I’m sorry, you saying June 19th was this girl’s…

Detective Brad Hoover: June 19th was the day she went missing.

Paul Bernardo: What day did I buy that…

Detective Brad Hoover: June 20th was the day you bought the cell phone. Uh, June 24th

Paul Bernardo: See, I must, I must have filed bankruptcy around then because I got that cellphone [inaudible]. I had to hand my, all my, uh, items in, uh, to the trustee and I had a cell phone, so I went in and got a Radio Shack one. So, it would have been right around the same time. I don’t think I went a month without it. I don’t think so. I might have but I, but anyways, I don’t know. It was a while ago, so memories are fuzzy.

Detective Brad Hoover: Yeah. May the 29th, so that was just before that, or about a month before that, that was the day police released the commons.

Paul Bernardo: Oh, so it was May. [inaudible]

Detective Brad Hoover: Yeah, so that was, uh…

Paul Bernardo: See what happens when you lock a guy up for 15 years then bring this all up? [laughs] Memory gets fuzzy. So, I guess I waited a month to get the cellphone.

Detective Brad Hoover: About a month to get the cellphone. Do you recall anything, what you were, what you were doing during that month? Anything….

Paul Bernardo: Probably the same thing it says there. Going across the border, back and forth, recreational stuff. I know Tammy happened in July. Um, that was [inaudible] in July for the first time. But this was back a few months.

Detective Brad Hoover:  Okay, um…

Paul Bernardo: Maybe [inaudible]

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay. So just prior to Tammy’s birthday there was some shopping at a Canadian tire store.

Paul Bernardo: Laurie’s birthday.

Detective Brad Hoover: Sorry, Laurie’s, uh, birthday. Um, two times in one day you went to a tire store on Sheppard avenue. 1019 Sheppard Avenue. [Bernardo shrugs signifying “I don’t know”] Do you normally shop at Canadian tire stores?

Paul Bernardo: Back then [inaudible]. That’s before all of these super centers and Wal-Marts and stuff [inaudible] so…

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay, um, do you ever recall having any conversations um, about the disappearance of Elizabeth Bain?

Paul Bernardo: No.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay. If I, if I played you, um, a short audio clip, um, it’s uh, conversation that you had, or conversation between Moore who was an investigator with the Toronto Police and Karla Homolka. I’m just going to play this. See if this, uh, sounds familiar or if it jogs your memory as to any conversation you may have had.

Karla Homolka: Um, I think the only thing he ever said about her was that her boyfriend did it or something like that but there wasn’t any real extensive discussion. But he talked about like all, all the women disappearing.

Detective Brad Hoover: And again, that, that was a conversation between, uh, investigator Tony Moore with Toronto Police Service and Karla Homolka. Does that conversation, does, that something you may recall saying that to Karla or talking about that?

Paul Bernardo: Well, you know, she went down with “Paul did it”. Catch phrase for the trial was “Paul did it, it was Paul” and this is, she’s continuing right there. She’s, you know, [inaudible]. The fact of the matter was I didn’t pay attention to any of it. I didn’t watch the news back then. I was too busy doing other things. I didn’t pay attention. The profile is “serial killer pays attention to the news and media, narcissistic personality blah blah blah” all that crap. I don’t know anything about this case now. I don’t know if this guy did it. I don’t even really care. I’m not the prosecutor, you know, do the right thing for society, blah blah blah.  I don’t know if he did it. I don’t know the facts behind if he did it and I certainly didn’t back then. So, to say that, for me to, she’s alleging that I made a statement “the boyfriend did it”. Well, you know, some cases I have followed because I am in jail and I have nothing to do but watch the TV. But I weigh the facts. You know, I take, you know, did OJ do it, for example.

Detective Brad Hoover: Right.

Paul Bernardo: You weigh the facts about whether he did or didn’t. He got out so that’s the law, but I would have to weigh the facts. I don’t know the facts of this circumstances so there’s no way I could make a statement such as that. How could I say he did it if I don’t know the facts of the case? So, no, she’s, she’s, she’s incorrect in her statement.

Detective Brad Hoover: And it may depend on when that conversation took place between her and that investigator.

Paul Bernardo: Well, Moore, wasn’t he back when that deal was made? Moore, I remember reading on transcripts [inaudible] from day one. When she signed her little twelve year deal, no polygraph required. Hey, [laughs] I’m giving you guys the truth here. You guys could prove me wrong, go down there, ask her, you’ll get a “no”, I keep telling you, no one does it. But um, I don’t know why. But you know, that sounds like a conversation, that’s what you do, pin it all on the other person, you know, you paint that scenario.  [inaudible]

Detective Brad Hoover: Um, do you, do you know of Robert Baltovich.

Paul Bernardo: I’ve seen him on, you know, [inaudible] T.V. or whatever. Like I said, I purposely avoided this case.

Detective Brad Hover: Alright.

Paul Bernardo: I don’t, I don’t like up, this shit on my mind. You know what I mean? Needing to, you know…Unfortunately when Karla came on I watched to sort of discern truth from fiction a couple years ago but otherwise I don’t like to get into these things. I have had a hundred lifetimes of this stuff. You know, so, and I don’t want my mind poisoned with this and this and this. So, this case I avoided as much as possible, but I have seen his face on the T.V.

Detective Brad Hoover: Right. Anything else you would like to tell us about this investigation?

Paul Bernardo: No.

Detective Brad Hoover: Okay the time now is uh 2:35 and we’ll conclude this portion of the interview.